Presidential debates on ABC right now-both parties
Comments
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I wish Geraldine said it better but she didn't. I know they're trying to blame her statement on Hillary, but she speaks for herself and always has.
The spin Dr.s are out. Tonight I heard one of them say that Ferraro's statement was worse then Obama's minister. And this is only March.
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I don't think Geraldine Ferraro gets it at all. She compared her being chosen as Mondale's VP because she was a woman to Obama's earning his first place because of his color, not that he is a dynamic candidate. That's insulting to marginalize Obama because of his race any more than it would be to marginalize Hillary because of her gender -- although Hillary does like to play the gender card and claim she's been treated poorly because of it. Hillary and her team have been practically begging blacks to vote for Obama with their missteps. True he got 91% of the black vote in Mississippi, but he earned most of those votes and Hillary threw away the rest of them. Hillary started off leading Obama with black voters and Mississippi was the only state where he got that many votes.
Obama needs to leave this church NOW. He needs to totally disassociate himself from this racist, radical church.
As for his preacher, Shirley I cannot believe that statement came out of your mouth after you scolded me for the things I said about Jerry Faldwell's horrific statements, which were no worse than anything Obama's preacher, Wright, said. You told me he was a good man who talked to you when you got diagnosed and that his awful statements didn't mean he was a bad person. From your words, I took that to mean that parishoners didn't have to believe EVERYTHING that their preachers said. I tried to use what I thought were your wise words to see the horrible things that some preachers say and realize that wasn't necessarily indicitive of the totality of his or her beliefs. From what you're saying it seems like that only goes for people who don't say things against a group of which you are affiliated.
A lot of what Wright said I agree with, but he stepped way, way way over the line by grouping whites as a monolithic group. I agree with his statements about how the USA used nuclear weapons and insinuated itself in foreign politics to our own benefit, but not the time, place and delivery of his statement. Wright has said things that are pro palestine, which are fine and some are true, but he goes over the top to make that against Israel/Jews.
Obama has clearly shown through his behavior that he doesn't believe each and every statement of Wright and has said that he doesn't believe everything. That is good enough for me.
The campaigns are getting a bit ridiculous by calling for candidates to fire and/or distance themselves from people who are not 100% politically correct or in agreement with the majority.
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Ok guys I am going to jump in here and just so everyone knows that my prospective comes from being a conservative Republican.......so with that being said Amy I do believe that Obama is going to have some trouble with Reverend Wright..........this guy married Obama and his wife........Obama is raising his children in this church and let's face Wright is the kind of black leader that makes his living by victimizing his own race..........I personally have no problem with organizations such as black churches that support Africa.........this is America and where they want to send missionaries, money, aid and support is certainly up to church but when a leader of a huge congregation does so by hating America and blaming America for all the trouble around the world is going to be a problem for Obama that is asking to be the leader of our great country.......with that said I still do believe that Obama is just as qualified and has just as much experience as Hillary...........I do not believe that because Hillary was First Lady for eight years does not qualify her to be President.........both Obama and Hillary have been Senators for about the same amount of time........so we will have to see how this plays out in the next few days.........I do believe that if Hillary ends up stealing the nomination from Obama that the black community is going to rise up and many will just cross over to McCain with a protest vote in the general election........jmo........Shokk
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If you are supporting Obam because of his position on Iraq you may want to be aware of this timeline and a little more scrutany of this.
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"The liberal and Obama-supporting New Republic has gone back and looked, into "The Cinderella Story". His views on the Iraq War have not been quite as principled as his campaign wishes voters to believe.
Even before candidate Obama first spoke of his opposition to the war, he fretted to his political advisers regarding whether his speech opposing the war might hurt him politically . That shifting of positions to suit the political tenor of the times has continued over the years.
A timeline of Obama wavering
Here is a convenient timeline of his changing positions (in his own words):
October 2, 2002, Chicago Wearing a war is not an option pin, he thrilled the anti-war rally by disparaging the Iraq war as a "dumb war. A war based not on reason but on passion, not on principle, but on politics."
The Audacity of Hope When America was obtaining clear victories on the ground in Iraq, Obama wrote in The Audacity of Hope, "I began to suspect that I might have been wrong [about the war]"
March 28, 2003, on CNN, Obama claimed that he, "Absolutely want to make sure that the troops have sufficient support to be able to win." He was invested in winning at that point.
Democratic National Convention July 2004 His only mention of the war was, "There are patriots who opposed the war in Iraq and patriots who supported it." The day after his speech, Senator Obama told reporters that the United States had an "absolute obligation " to remain in Iraq long enough to make it a success. He stated that failure of the Iraqi state would be a disaster and would be a betrayal of the promise that we made to the Iraqi people, and it would be hugely destabilizing from a national security perspective". (This history is beginning to get more attention -- see below).
Same month He was no longer certain how he would have voted. "I'm not privy to Senate intelligence reports. What would I have done? I don't know." (The New York Times on July 26.)
2004 election To keep in line with his party's candidates Kerry and Edwards, who had voted for the Iraq War, he told The New York Times, "I'm always careful to say that I was not in the Senate, so perhaps the reason I thought [the war] was such a bad idea was that I didn't have the benefit of U.S. intelligence,"
After the election Obama regained his certainty on the Charlie Rose Show. When Rose asked him if he would have voted against the Iraq War resolution had he been in Congress, Obama's answer was a simple, "Yes."
July 2004 Obama told the Chicago Tribune "[t] here's not that much difference between my position [on the war] and George Bush's position at this stage."
As for the troop withdrawal,
November 2005 speech He called for a gradual withdrawal of forces. "Notice that I say 'reduce,' and not 'fully withdraw'"
December 2005 He told the Chicago Tribune, "It is arguable that the best politics going into '06 would be a clear, succinct message: 'Let's bring our troops home...But whether that's the best policy right now, I don't feel comfortable saying it is."
January 2007 (just before announcing his run for the Presidency), for example, he outlined a plan to begin "redeployment of U.S. forces no later than May 1, 2007" and "remove all combat brigades from Iraq by March 31, 2008."
Today, he vows to "immediately begin to remove our troops from Iraq."
The AP reported it this way in July 2007:
"Presidential hopeful Barack Obama said Thursday the United States cannot use its military to solve humanitarian problems and that preventing a potential genocide in Iraq isn't a good enough reason to keep U.S. forces there." .
Obama and obligations
The following is a statement startling in its implications, and gives us insight into Barack Obama's reliability. In 2004, according to the Boston Globe, he stated:
...that the United States had an "absolute obligation " to remain in Iraq long enough to make it a success. He stated that failure of the Iraqi state would be a disaster and would be a betrayal of the promise that we made to the Iraqi people, and it would be hugely destabilizing from a national security perspective.
That was a commitment to the Iraqi people -- an "absolute" promise that we would hold paramount our obligation to provide them security, to protect them from the ravages that would flow from a failed state. Yet a mere three years later he was ready to throw them to the wolves, genocide be damned.
This willingness of Senator Obama to turn his back on something he proclaimed an "absolute obligation" should be particular concern to the millions of supporters of Israel in America. When campaigning, Senator Obama has made similar promises regarding the safety and security of Israel? How long will those promises last? Until January, 2009?
Relying on Rockefeller
On March 2, 2008 in Ohio, Obama blasted Hillary Clinton for her vote authorizing the war. Obama criticized Clinton for failing to read the classified National Intelligence Estimate on Iraq's weapons capabilities. "She didn't give diplomacy a chance. And to this day, she won't even admit that her vote was a mistake -- or even that it was a vote for war."
He said that Sen. Jay Rockefeller (who is supporting Obama's campaign) had read the intelligence estimate as a member of the Senate Intelligence Committee and had voted against the war resolution. Obama concluded that a careful reading of the NIE Report would have resulted in a vote against the war.
Unfortunately for Senator Obama, Sen. Jay Rockefeller, after careful reading of the Intelligence information, voted for the war.
Both the New York Times and its sister publication the Boston Globe have begun questioning Barack Obama's shifting positions on the Iraq War. The New York Times wrote this last weekend:
"He was cautious (during his early days in the Senate) - even on the Iraq war, which he had opposed as a Senate candidate, he voted against the withdrawal of troops. He proposed a drawdown only after he was running for president and polls showed voters favoring it." [emphasis added]
(Is the suspension of disbelief, the credulity, that has powered the media lover affair with Barack Obama, coming to an end? Will the seeming opportunism behind Senator Obama's shifting stances on the Iraq War take some of the shine of his ascent? John McCain in the general election will use some version of this timeline of "change" for his talking points should he face Barack Obama in the general election. These issues go to Senator Obama's resoluteness, principles, and judgment.)" -
Interesting perspective- shokk. I do not have the personal experience to know much about this. I just assumed that most of his parishoners would be rolling their eyes thinking, "yikes." about his sermon after 9/11 and assuming he wasn't so radical on a day to day basis. What surprised me the most is that I didn't think preachers/religious people were supposed to say god damn(ed), especially in sermons.
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How is Obama responsible for what comes out of Wright's mouth during his sermons?
How many of you have been to a majority black Christian Church and listened to the sermons?
I agree that Obama needs to distance himself from this minister. I believe that this is just the beginning of the Obama smear campaign. I would hope that the media would be more responsible and try not to make judgements about this situation, just present the facts and let us figure it out for ourselves.
I do not agree totally with what the minister said (at least during the portion shown on CNN), but I believe we are in America and he has the right to freedom of speech. There are many, many people in America that rail against America and blame the government for what is wrong. But when it's a black man, all of a sudden it casts doubts on the character of someone who attended the church, was married there, and his children went there also.
Over the past 8 years I have worked closely with women of color at my job. It has been an eye-opening experience. Perhaps some believe that Wright was exaggerating. I am reminded that I am a white woman, and I can never experience what a black man or woman has experienced, and I never will.
I have been waiting for race and gender to imerge. And it has bigtime. Yes, many were hopeful that racism and genderism could finally be put to rest in this country. But that time has not come and obviously will not come in time for this Presidential campaign. This saddens me greatly.
Until EVERY citizen in this great country is treated not EQUALLY but EQUITABLY, the isms will pervail.
I don't claim to know everything about what I've spoken about here, but I go by my experiences and research as best I can. I can only speak for myself, what I see, and how I feel about that.
I apologize in advance if I offended anyone,
grace -
You know Amy you would think so except for all the cheering and raising of arms and amens........he is a very dynamic speaker to say the least........he brings his congregation to a frenzy in all his sermons.......and not just the gd comments but using the f word over and over.........very intense to say the least...............Shokk
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Yea Grace that may be true but the problem is is that there are lots of black churches that don't use this kind of tactic to make their members hate and mistrust this country..........Obama is from Chicago where there are probably hundreds of black churches that he could be a member of...........I think the most dangerous concept is raising your children in this kind of environment.......would it be ok to attend a church were David Duke preaches hatred of all races except white? Well yea some people do but if you end up running for public office this could end up being a problem for you because most rational people regardless of color wouldn't want to expose their children to this kind of bigotry............Shokk
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And one more thing why would you attend a church were you didn't respect and agree in general with what is being preached?......That is what doesn't make sense unless Obama had his sights set on public office even twenty years ago and wanted to attend the biggest black church in his community for exposure and votes..........of course I don't think in the long run he really needs the black vote....I think his age, looks, the matter in which he speaks attracts all races and of course the younger voters...........we will just have to see how this plays out..........if any one can get past this Obama can.......Shokk
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"Hannity and Colmes is doing a show on this guy Friday night on Fox. I'd like to get the full picture of what Obama's been listening to for all these years and didn't walk away from."
Rosemary--These sermons are all available the same place the news organanizations got them.
They just puchased the DVD's--
They have a website
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Susie,
That website seems to be having an error report. I wonder if too many are trying to access Wright's sermons.
Water seeks its own level. I couldn't sit through those types of sermons if my life depended on it. Will Obama be judged by the company he keeps, or where he worships, I hope so. It's not a smear campaign if its true. If he actually sat through those types of rantings and didn't remove himself, then what am I or anyone else suppose to think about him? He agrees with it. Or, back then he agreed with it.
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You probably have to go to the home page first
Then go to the bookstore and then click on worship services
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Susie,
I think I'll have to wait till tonight, those "sermons" are for sale. Thanks anyway.
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Yep Rosemary--You'll have me tuning in tonight as well.
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- "I don't think Geraldine Ferraro gets it at all. She compared her being chosen as Mondale's VP because she was a woman to Obama's earning his first place because of his color, not that he is a dynamic candidate." Amy did you even bother to read what I wrote in my previous post? Ferraro is not saying that Obama is not a dynamic candidate. She is not saying that he's not qualified. And, by the same token, she too was qualified when she was nominated to run for VP. Her point is that neither her qualifications nor Obama's have been put to the same acid test as they would have been if they'd both been white males. And in the reception she received, just as in the reception that Obama receives, there are points being given for uniqueness and novelty. Ferraro is not saying that gender was the only factor that led to her nomination nor is she saying that race is the only factor that is driving Obama's success. But she feels she benefited from the uniqueness of her gender, just as she feels that he is benefiting from the uniqueness of his race. BTW Amy, just in your saying that Obama is a "dynamic candidate", you support Ferraro's point. A "dynamic" white male candidate with only 2 years of U.S. Senate experience, while perhaps interesting at first, would never have made it this far. It takes a whole lot more than dynamism to be president.
- Obama wrote his book The Audacity of Hope around 2005, well after Rev. Jeremiah Wright made his offensive comments about 9/11. The title of book was in fact inspired by Rev. Wright and in interviews, Obama called him his "spiritual mentor" and "role model". This was all well after Obama should have been distancing himself from the church. Obama did not start to disassociate himself from some of Wright's comments until he started his run for the presidency, and even at that, as recently as this month, he said "I don't think my church is actually particularly controversial." More on his church, from ABC News yesterday: http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=4443788&page=1
- Obama and Clinton do not have the same amount of U.S. Senate experience. Obama has been in the U.S. Senate only since 2005. Prior to that, he was in the Illinois Senate for 7 years, dealing at a non-executive level (i.e. not as Governor) with local/regional issues rather than national/international issues. The 7 years includes time spent running for a seat in Congress in 2000 (he lost) and time spent running for a seat in the U.S. Senate in 2004. (More focused on his career than on the job, perhaps?) He won the U.S. Senate bid but after just 2 years, he announced his candidacy for the presidency. On the other hand, Clinton has been in the U.S. Senate since 2001. She was present for the discussion, debate and vote on the Iraq war; Obama was not. Clinton was re-elected to the U.S. Senate in 2006 with 67% of the vote.
Facts are facts, much as some don't want them to be.
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Amy, I want to respond to you before I read further posts.
First of all, I didn't go to Jerry Falwell's church. I didn't sit under him for 20 years. I visited one time with my friend who son lives in Lynchburg. Second, Jerry Falwell has said things very controversial. I, however, did not think that he as a minister should have openly said them. Also, Amy, he has apologized many times by things he as said. Has Obama's minister, Wright, apologized. Also, Falwell would walk around the bars in restuarants shaking hands. I can tell you because I am Baptist that not many fundamental ministers would do that. He always had a smile on his face even if he disagreed with you. And, even one of the worse individuals I can think of, what's-his-name...Hustler magazine, like Falwell. Falwell went to court against this guy, but Falwell lost on appeal. They talked civily together. Why? Because even if Falwell didn't approve of what you did or what you stood for he would be there for you. You see, Amy, if one is a Christian one has to FORGIVE. Whether you like my beliefs or not, they are MY beliefs. Your beliefs are YOURS.
We are no longer in the "slave days." By Wright preaching this crap he's just keeping "his" people there.
And Obama sat under his ministery for 20 long years. Great place to raise your children.
So, Amy, use my words. I'm proud of them.
Shirley
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This is what I'd like to know more about:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/01/14/AR2008011402083.html
An award to Farrakhan and Obama kept attending?
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Yup, Rosemary, he kept attending.
And it's more than that. Remember as well that in the Ohio debate, when questioned about Farrakhan's endorsement of his candidacy, Obama tried to have it both ways. He said that he has "been very clear in my denunciation of Minister Farrakhan's anti-Semitic comments" but he was very careful in his wording to not denounce or reject Farrakhan himself. In fact he continued to call him "Minister Farrakhan", which is considered to be a sign of respect. It was only when Obama was cornered by Clinton that he finally gave in and "rejected" Farrakhan's endorsement.
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Oh, yes, Rosemary. But they'll "try" to make it right in this editorial.
And, here's why Wright had to say:
http://www.nypost.com/seven/01182008/postopinion/editorials/baracks_un_righteous_rev_760599.htm
"There's more. In a 2007 interview with The New York Times, Wright said: 'When [Obama's] enemies find out that in 1984 I went to Tripoli [to visit Moammar Khadafy] with Farrakhan, a lot of his Jewish support will dry up quicker than a snowball in hell.' "
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"He said that he has "been very clear in my denunciation of Minister Farrakhan's anti-Semitic comments" but he was very careful in his wording to not denounce or reject Farrakhan himself."
Smart guy, Beesie. He's a SMOOTH talker!
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So was JFK --a smooth talker. Seems there was lots of controversy over having a Catholic President.
To me it does not matter what religion someone follows or where he/she goes to church. The Constitution of this great country was written to SEPARATE CHURCH AND STATE. Church teachings should not have anything to do with being a candidate for president. And what about someone who is an atheist? Should they be kept from becoming President?
Are we going to try to decide which religion is the right religion for someone to follow in order to be elected to public office?
I go on what the man says and how he treats people. I don't see him behaving as Wright suggests in the blurb that I heard.
We still have much change to take place in this country. Obama wants to help us change what many of us see is wrong, right now. Perhaps this country and its citizens are not ready for Obama.
Perhaps we are not strong enough to help make change.
I just think we need to remember the Freedom of Speech that exists in this country. This minister is allowed to speak how he feels, it doesn't mean Obama is in his clutches.
I'd like to see us honor the 2nd amendment, and the separation of church & state that is written in the Constitution.
I'll certainly tune in th Hannity & Colmes tonight. Wouldn't miss it for the world. I think it helps to learn all sides of the controversy in making a decision about who to vote for in November.
grace -
Religion plays a big role when it comes to what the man's yelling about. He is teaching HATE! I would like to see a clip of him teaching love for all people. Have you ever heard that little song, Jesus Loves the Little Children...all the children of the world. Red and yellow, black and white, they are precious in his site. Jesus loves the little children of the world.
Would you feel differently if this "Rev" Wright was preaching in an Islamist mosque abouting hating America? That were are infidels? Would you feel comfortable if a person from that church was running for president?
It's not that we are not ready for a Obama "a black man." I couldn't care less what color he is. I'M SERIOUS! I realize there are many who do not feel my way. However, I don't think there's one person who's been participating in this debate that's racist. I do care about what he's been listening to for 20 years! Please, someone, bring on some really positive messages Wright has been preaching to his congregation. We, as white people, would not even entertain the thought of someone like David Duke being president. Yes, their are some extemist.
How he treats the people? What if you learned too late that he didn't treat all people well? We only have what info we have...and it doesn't sound too good.
If you read Susie's "timeline" on what he had to say about the Iraq war...that should give you food for thought. He can't make up his mind when or when not to be in favor of a war. He doesn't know how he would have voted. I don't know how I would have voted.
And, yes, I want to war to end. But not when the war isn't over. It's not over. We cannot pull out of Iraq within 16 months or whatever Obama has proposed. That's just ridiculous. Plus, read what Susie posted about his comments. That SHOULD open ANYONE'S eyes!
We in this country are not strong enough to make change? What do you mean?
If he did act like his pastor he wouldn't have made it this far. Even YOU and others who support him would not be supporting him now. Obama's not stupid. No one's ever accused him of that.
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I heard this quote on E.D. HIll's show today. Someone emailed it in.
This person said she tells her children, Show me who your friends are and I'll show you who you are.
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Shirley,
You and I just disagree. And that's okay. It makes this thread even more important. To hear every side. And there are areas of this country where the preachings of the David Dukes in our society are considered okay. One of those people has the right to run for an office in government if he/she wants to. I can't remember DD too well, but I didn't think he was a preacher or minister.
No I wouldn't feel any different if Wright was preaching in an Islamic mosque about hating America. Wrght isn't running for the office of President. Wright is not this man's father, uncle or brother--he's a minister. Wright does not speak for Obama, and Obama does not speak for Wright. Each is responsible for their individual actions.
I'm sure there are areas in this country where there are other churches that speak to issues you or I would not agree with--maybe different from our own values. Personally, I have no right to judge that group or to say someone from that group should not be President of this country. We have freedom of religion and speech in this country, although if Bush had more time, he probably could have figured out a way to eliminate those with his Patriot Act business.
There are many men and women in this world who I have met who love America and are good churchgoers with wonderful family values; but they are not people I would vote for in an election. And it has nothing to do with religion (that's the main reason I say "churchgoers" rather than identifying a particular religion.
grace -
Bessie,
I watched part of the Ohio debate and wanted to finish it but I forgot. I'm surprised that Obama got such a free pass on this issue. He probably still will.
Those supposed church services... I see those meetings as nothing but a place to go and get your weekly dose of vilification.
I was just reading the Rasmussen reports. Right now Hillary and Obama are running neck and neck against McCain. McCain would win by a slight margin. We'll see if any of this "religion" issue will matter as time goes by.
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Wow just heard that Oprah attends the same church as Obama..........do you guys think thats true? I haven't confirmed this but some guy just said it on the radio.......Shokk
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I don't care what race someone is. I don't care what religion someone is. What I care about is their beliefs and their character.
Obama has said that Rev. Wright is his "role model". Considering all that Rev. Wright has said over the years, for me, that puts into question Obama's beliefs and his character.
I question his character more when I see how carefully he has molded himself into the ideal candidate by changing what he's said or done in the past. Susie's post about his ever-changing position on Iraq is a great example of that.
And I question his character even more when I see how he attacks Clinton for doing exactly what he himself has done. He's waffled on NAFTA, but he attacks her for her inconsistent message. (Oh right, not only has he waffled in his public statements, his advisor told a foreign government that what he's saying during the campaign is just political posturing.) He continually brings up Clinton's vote on Iraq, yet he himself admitted (prior to the campaign, of course) that he doesn't know what his vote would have been, had he been in the Senate at the time. (Oh right, not only that, but his advisor has admitted that the Iraq withdrawal plan on which he's built his campaign is just political posturing, a "best case" scenerio.)
For this campaign Obama has created a persona that may not really exist. Maybe it's him, but maybe it's not. And even if it is him, to me, he's really starting to come across as someone who can't be believed or trusted. The point is, we don't know who Obama really is. And that's frightening.
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Against my better judgement, I will add my two cents here...
This preacher may be saying words you find despicable. But he has no power. He has not sent our children into an unjust war with inadequate equipment. He cannot declare war on Iran.
I'll start worrying about this preacher only after I know that we don't have a McCain/Cheney/Bush approach to foreign policy in the White House. Until then, what terrifies me is the people in power - not a preacher in one church.
I grew up in the Baptist church and have attended a variety of churches. I have quit attending organized religious services because it is, in fact, a business. I can read the Bible and worship on my own, for free, thank you very much!
FWIW, this thread hasn't changed one single person's views. Everyone (including me) has an opinion to assert and defend and that's the only thing happening here.
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"The statements that Rev. Wright made that are the cause of this controversy were not statements I personally heard him preach while I sat in the pews of Trinity or heard him utter in private conversation. When these statements first came to my attention, it was at the beginning of my presidential campaign."
An exerpt from the Huffington post that I find incredulous.
Didn't happen to be in church that day?
Sermon after sermon---Lifetime award to Louis Farrakan?
After a twenty year association!---His mentor? the man that married him?
Hard believing this is just some crazy old uncle.
It calls into question judgement.
By the way Shokk --Oprah was a member of that church but has not attended in twelve years.
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Thank you Donna for your two cents--I had to chuckle when you said no matter what is said here no one's opinion has changed. LOL Sooooooooooo true!
I still haven't seen it documented that Wright gave the same type of sermon every Sunday for the past 20 years.
He is just a preacher in a church. As Donna says, he has no power.
grace
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