continued Tissue expander pain!!

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  • suemed8749
    suemed8749 Member Posts: 1,151
    edited March 2008

    Thanks for the warm welcome from all of you! I definitely like the warmth and humor of the women on this site - we all know that nobody wants to be here, but it's great to have a place for support.

    I'm a teacher, so if I can make it through as much of March (after surgery), April and May as possible between healing from surgery and starting chemo, I'll have the summer off. Thankfully, I've saved up lots of days over the years, so I will be okay.

    Again - thanks for making me feel like I have a place to turn!

    Sue

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  • luigisk87
    luigisk87 Member Posts: 2
    edited March 2008

    Actually a product called tegreen97 is being endorsed by the breast and prostate cancer institues because of its global patents proven to diminish and stop the spread of cancer cells. its a natural product with the highest concentration of polyphenols, no side effects, made by pharmanex. its exclusive only to those who have access. anyway i could help you guys about it, just email me at luigisk87@yahoo.com.

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  • Hanna60978
    Hanna60978 Member Posts: 815
    edited March 2008

    WinkHi everybooby!!  

    Welcome to all the new girls on this thread.  I've just noticed a common denominator among quite a few of us...many of us are teachers!

    Wow!  I didn't notice this right off, but after reading along for awhile, I realized this cool fact.  You know, it could be you all who aren't actually official teachers, could be teachers as somehow you came here and stayed....probably because it feels like a "comfort zone" here.  Yep.

    We are all sooooooooo nice!! Laughing  And teachers are by definition multifaceted.  Somehow able to juggle tasks, have interests in more than one area, care about people, nurture, able to explain things, and have a terrific sense of humor cause that's what it takes to survive in a classroom of any age students.  And we carry on.  Must be why I love you all....I feel like it's lunch time in the teacher's lounge around here!

    Sharon!  I am right now just visiting Bess because the outbuilding here that's going to be her barn with her donkey friend, and the duck (I guess?) is just a sort of big inside space with no stalls.  Nice and dry, but mostly concrete floor and open.  The floor will be good for cleaning, but as it is, I'd be having to clean the whole thing because there aren't any official stalls yet.  So they'd all be wandering around and you know what kind of work that would end up.  I made friends with this guy and his brother who do work on the side and they're going to help me out with making a couple stalls.  The duck will have to do with a tub of water in there I guess.  This is a new one on me, but around here while I've been driving, I've noticed a single duck or a single goose following a cow or horse around.  My youngest son (an up and coming Dr. Dolittle) says this is because geese mate for life and if one dies, the other stays single and is unwelcome in other geese groups of paired up geese.  So, left on their own, they will try to hook up with another creature and cows and donkey's don't seem to mind their company.  Sounds right to me.  Oh, by the way, Bess doesn't seem to like her name.  She never comes when you call her Bess.  The guy never calls her anything to her face so maybe she doesn't even know it's her name, so I've been trying out other names when I visit.  It's looking like one in particular is her preference, but I'll let you know.  The donkey seems to come to "Carrot".  Well, duh.  I'd come to "Hot Fudge Sunday".  About my garden, I will remember the hostas..Thank you!  I've always meant to get hostas but never do.  Now these bleeding heart flowers I've never heard of.  I'll check them out especially since I have a genuine landscape artist here!  Wink

    All I feel like I can do here now is just offer up congratulations to you all who've made it through to the exchange.  I'm just plodding along with expansion with no news to report.  So there's talking about my life or just watching the buns rise going on here on my side of the fence.

    Sharon, Teri, Margaret, Jani, Denise - you all are done and doing the drop and fluff.  Some maybe with a tweak or two.  I sure hope Jean is doing OK since we haven't heard a thing from her and I thought her surgery was on Wednesday.  I hope we hear from her soon.

    New girls!  You all have joined me in the watching the buns rise phase.  I hope you all have patience because that becomes your middle name as we slowly reach our exchange dates.  Patience and creative dressing are paramount here.  But the advantage of this reconstruction method is we don't have incisions anywhere else.  Plus, from what I'm hearing, we get more sensation return~  Ooolala. Kiss

    Well, I have much work to get done today, so have a good one girls!

    ~ hanna

          

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  • kes
    kes Member Posts: 559
    edited March 2008

    Hi Ladies,

    Hanna,

    I always wanted to be a teacher, Christmas off, Thanksgiving off, New Years off, all the long weekends off, summer break, March break, no night shifts, no weekends, you get my drift (boy did I make the wrong choice) Don't get me wrong, I do love my job, most of the time.

    Also I never knew what a hosta was until we moved to this house 4 years ago and this place is covered in hostas.Also my next door neighbour when I was in grade 3 had a bleeding heart bush and I thought they were the neatest plant and I was madly in love with her son, Paul. I always plant a bleeding heart bush where ever I live.And Paul from Winnipeg, Canada if you are out there,I had a crush on you in grade 3 and I was the girl next door. Life is strange, in a funny way.

    Take Care,Ladies and have a good weekend.

    Kerry

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  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Member Posts: 1,376
    edited March 2008

    Kerry

    Thanks for the good luck. I did have surgery, but do to the UTI my surgeon back away from the elbow. He was worried about a staph infection in my LD arm. We'll have to go back in a few weeks....gee that will be #6 in 9 months. My PM is okay, but they didn't check the wires....need the machine for that. I have not felt any jumping in my throat so I am hoping it was just some of the muscles the wires were pulling on.

    I took a peak into my bandages and I look much smaller than I was before BC and even than with the expanders. I hope they grow a little...if not I'll just adjust, no more of this crap.

    Guess I need to move on to a new posting now, "nipples". 

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  • LauraK23
    LauraK23 Member Posts: 159
    edited March 2008

    Hi All, 

    When I had my CT read by the radiologist, she told me that I had absolutely no fat between my expanders and my rib cage.  I thought, "ah ha, maybe that's why I have so much pain".  I'm fairly thin, especially in that area.  I was an A cup and my breasts hardly had any fat in them either.  

    I want to take a poll.  I'm curious to know if those of you who aren't experiencing much pain had a bigger breast size before your mastectomies, and those of you who were smaller chested are experiencing more pain.  Just a theory.  It would make sense for fat cells between the chest wall and ribs to act as padding and not cause as must discomfort.

    Please respond if you're comfortable sharing that information with me.Wink

    Thanks!!!

    Laura

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  • LauraK23
    LauraK23 Member Posts: 159
    edited March 2008

    Hi Sue,

    I was just wondering the outcome of your appt.  I didn't know what you meant by immediate reconstruction?  Would you be using your own tissue for the reconstruction?  Is that what you meant?

    Laura

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  • rubytuesday
    rubytuesday Member Posts: 2,248
    edited March 2008

    Laura, Sorry to blow your theory so early on but I am thin (actually was thinner at the time of my mast....stress does that to me) and I didn't have any problems with pain/expanders.  I also had breasts that were a deflated B (didn't realize how deflated they were until I got my expander....LOL).  Best wishes

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  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Member Posts: 1,376
    edited March 2008

    Laura

    I was a large D and almost died from the pain with the last 2 fills...it never stopped and I have 440 implants, now. They fell so much better than the expanders even though I am in a lot of pain. 

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  • LauraK23
    LauraK23 Member Posts: 159
    edited March 2008

    Bummer, I thought I had it all figured out.  How many cc's are you two getting at each fill and how long do you wait between?  Gosh, I just really wonder why some people hurt and why some don't.  I mean I'm talking major pain when I get 60cc's for 3 days.  Can't go to work, at least I can work from home though.  I am cutting back to 40 next time and my meds have been increased.  So I'm anxious to see how my next fill goes next Friday.

    Thanks for responding so fast.

    Laura

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  • rubytuesday
    rubytuesday Member Posts: 2,248
    edited March 2008

    Laura, I have my implants now...have had them for over a year...it does get better!!!  My fills were every TWO weeks and I usually got 60cc.....twice, I got 80cc.  I ALWAYS told my PS when I could feel it and then she would stop.  I never had discomfort from my fills.  My biggest problem was wanting to look and I had a 2+ hr. drive....NOT a good thing to be peering down your shirt and driving in city traffic....LOL!!!

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  • LauraK23
    LauraK23 Member Posts: 159
    edited March 2008

    Yeah, It's probably not a good idea to be looking down while driving, or even worse fondling yourself. 

    Did you see my survey I put out about an hour ago.  Look and it and respond if you're alright with it.

    Laura

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  • LauraK23
    LauraK23 Member Posts: 159
    edited March 2008

    Nevermind, I just remember that you already responded.  Sorry about that.

    Laura

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  • kes
    kes Member Posts: 559
    edited March 2008

    Hi Ladies,

     Jean,

    Glad to here that your surgery happened and that it went well.Onward to nipples.Let us know what you find out.Hopefully I will be there soon too.

     Laura,

    I also had a lot of pain with the tissue expansion, but my PS had me at 360cc on each side at only 2weeks and 3 days post bilateral mastectomy. I never had time to recover from the last fill and then she would do another one. Was in agony after the third fill and she did bump my pain meds up and she offered to take some saline off but I declined (stupid move on my part) and then after 1 week of agony I did have 25cc taken off of each side and had immediate relief.Now I am at 335cc on each side and she said that this would be a full B or a small C on me and there is no need to do any overfill at this time as she does not feel the need for this.This kind of makes me nervous,as I would like to return to a B or even go to a small C if I have enough expansion,but seems like some exchanges are coming out smaller than predicted. Will have to trust her judgement. So I do not have that much fat on my rib cage and before bc I was a full B and I did have a lot of pain with the expansion. Even now I just find that my chest is soooo tight.Also thought that I was done with new pain and now that last 3 days have had pain in the left lower rib area. Totally new, feels like the tissue is being ripped off of the ribs.Wonderfull!!! Told the PS that I needed an exchange date to focus on and I got April 25. Can hardle wait. If she wants to do one more tiny fill I think that I can take a small one, but I will see what she says at next appt. which is next Thursday. Just take one day at a time.

    Hope that helps.

    Kerry

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  • LauraK23
    LauraK23 Member Posts: 159
    edited March 2008

    Hi Kerry,

    That totally amazes me that she filled you up that fast.  I have had 4 60cc fills so I'm at 240 and my surgery was January 11th.  It's getting too painful to put in 60cc's so I'm backing down to 40 until I reach 360 to 400.  I think that should put be in a full B. 

    I get that sharp pain in my ribs under my left breast from time to time.  I think it's happened about 3 times and usually lasts a week.

    Even if she doesn't expand you to say 360, can she still put a 360cc implant in?  That will be a great birthday present.  I have no idea when I will get mine because my PS wants me done with all my chemo and radiation before we make the switch. 

    Keep in touch.

    Laura

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  • kes
    kes Member Posts: 559
    edited March 2008

    Laura,

     My bilateral mast was done on Jan 25 and my PS put 200cc in each expander at the time of surgery and my 3 fills were done by Feb 11/08 and I was at 360cc. My pain pills were bumped up on Feb 14/08 (happy valentines day) and by Feb 19 I was back to get 25cc drawn off of each side.I was in agony,  like an elephant was sitting on my chest.She must have thought that I was Super Woman, which I am not. Next appt on Thursday is the implant talk.She said right now that she can do a full B or a small C and does not have to do any overfill as she said that I cannot tolerate any more ( and I am sure that she is right ) I may go for the small C and hope for a B which is what I was before bc. I will have to trust her. Boggles my mind though as she does all this figuring about implant size by just eyeballing my puffy chest,and I don't want to be too big or too small when done. That is how I found this site as I had to google "pain with tissue expanders" as I was ready to tell her to take them out. Very thankful that I found this site and found other women that were having the same pain issues. I will ask on Thursday what size implant she will use to obtain a B or a small C and take it from there.

    Take Care,

    Kerry

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  • Jani
    Jani Member Posts: 80
    edited March 2008

    Hi Jean: I am so happy to hear that you have had your surgery and that at least the expander pain is gone. Isn't that an amazing feeling? In a few days you can start sleeping the night through again. I have been sleeping like a baby since my exchange 3 and a half weeks ago.
    Hi Laura: It is my thinking that following your mastectomy there should be as few cells between your skin and rib cage as was humanly possible for your surgeon to get. All the mammary tissue and fat are removed leaving only skin, muscle and ribs in all of us. The pressure caused by these expanders gets greater with each fill - guess it takes a lot of force to stretch muscle. This pressure is equally exerted on the over lying muscles as well as the rib cage so there is pain from both the stretching of the pectoralis and serratus muscles overlying the expander and also from the intercostal muscles between the ribs under the expanders.
    You are certainly right, and I have spent many an hour wondering why some women don't feel discomfort when most of us at this site are in excruciating pain. I have heard of women getting 100 cc per fill and not missing a beat. Go figure! It just has to be some difference in muscle being stretchier. I have heard of women expanding up to 900 - 1000 ccs. I was at 620 and had been in great pain for most of it getting 50cc each time (I think the first 2 fills were okay) could not possibly have gone any further.

    All I can say is take your time, persevere and you will get through it. The relief from the expanders is immediate with the exchange. You will still have discomfort from the new incisions and maybe some bruising, but this kind of pain seems so much more manageable than muscle spasms. Hang in there girls.

    I have picts from each point in this process. I am going to take my final ones today and see if I can post them.

     Jani

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  • Wren
    Wren Member Posts: 324
    edited March 2008

    LauraK23,

    I was a 34D before bilateral mastectomy. I am currently getting fills... and I am now at 670. What I have noticed is that it's more the time between the fills influences how much pain I'm in.

    If I wait two weeks between fills I can get 60cc with minimal (like 24-48hrs) pain that doesn't need a lot of meds...

    If I go once a week (every 6-7 days) I have at least three days of agonizing pain and each time it feels a bit different (either in an armpit or under a breast or on my back muscles)... I also can't get more than 50 in at a time and feel OK if I do fills weekly.

    I am getting close to being filled to where I need to be for me to be a 34D again.  I may go to 800 so I can get a good sized implant. If I have to do 30 a week or every other in order to get there then that's what I'll do.

    I'm sure tired of not being able to sleep on my tummy though...  and I can't reach across my chest very well either so I'll be glad when the nice squishy implants are put in.

    I have a funny expander pain story... sorta...

    I still have muscle spasms in my chest at random times but usually when I'm exerting somehow like pushing or pulling or lifting...

    So, if that happens I usually try to massage the pecs a bit or something (discretely)... Well, I was in the grocery store and I was still pretty sore after the last fill and I reached up to get a half gallon of milk of a top shelf (I can't even lift a gallon) and as I grabbed the carton my muscle just spasmed and I reacted (said ow, quietly) and tried to rub the muscle under my jacket--but it really hurt and I guess I was rubbing my 'boob' and making a little owie moan and not realizing what this could look like.... OMG.... this lady came up to get milk and I was like um....blushing.... and then luckily my husband came back from getting his cereal and reached up and got the milk for me..... I told him what happened and that I'm sure people thought I was nuts or something... LOL...

    It's just a reflex to rub a 'charlie horse' but I'm not used to having that in my boob...  Glad I have a sense of humor... Can you just see me... some haggard, tired lady with big boobs massaging herself in the milk aisle?  Geez.... Right out of a bad movie...

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  • Sociologist
    Sociologist Member Posts: 237
    edited March 2008

    Hey Laura,

    I was a 42DD before the mast (one side). Expanded to 760cc's, had a reduction/lift and am now maybe a "B". Unfortunately had lots of pain during expansion and still have some with the implant. Good poll! I'd had a reduction in 1993 from "H's" to DD (could have waited on that one for sure!).

    Jean: Glad the surgery went well and I hope you're on the mend very soon!

    I started back on the Zoloft; taking it at night is better because I sleep through the nausea. The downside is that I only sleep for about 3 hours because I'm chicken to try the Ambien (the sleep driving, eating, and sex are a bit much). Any of yall tried Ambien and if so, how did you like or dislike it? I need to sleep like a regular person.

    Wow, we do have a lot of teachers here don't we? Those that teach the little folks are brave, brave, brave! I like the college crowd (no tattling, runny noses on my clothes, and no peeing accidents--well not this semester anyway!). I couldn't have made it through everything without all the breaks we get (thank goodness our spring break starts March 24).

    Yall have a good one...

    Margaret

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  • kes
    kes Member Posts: 559
    edited March 2008

    Hi Ladies,

    I could never go as big as 600-760cc. I just cannot imagine the pain for that long!!!! But I am a BIG suck when it comes to pain.

    Margaret,

    I know that you are allergic to all kinds of meds, but have you tried Gravol for sleeping? I don't take it for nausea, but I will take it if I am having trouble getting to sleep. It works for me. Also I did get a sleeping pill from my GP and I am not  a big pill person, the less the better for me , but this one does work with no hangover effect for me.

    It is Zopiclone 5mg take 1-2 tabs at bedtime. I only ever took 1 and I probably slept for 8 hours straight through. What a wonderful feeling to get away from the pain for that long.

    Kerry.

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  • jdg1
    jdg1 Member Posts: 608
    edited March 2008

    Teribear,

    The Bali Bra concealer is a new bra out on the market of course by Bali.  In the nipple area inside the bra it has the concealer it is in the shape of a flower.  You can not see it from the outside and it just covers up the nipple area to hide the fact there is no nipple.  They fit me great.  I tried on other bras but was not happy with them.  Right now I saw an add in Mervnys for 19.00 a piece which is really cheap because I paid around $30.00 each at Gottschalks.  I don't know if you have a Mervyns or not but I also know they sell them at Macys as well. 

    June 

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  • jdg1
    jdg1 Member Posts: 608
    edited March 2008

    Jean,

    I am so happy to hear you were able to have the exchange surgery but sorry they could not do your elbow as well.  I am guessing they were not able to do your nipples at the same time?  My PS said we would do my nipples in April and also a little of lipo suction because I have a little to much fat in certain areas.

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  • jdg1
    jdg1 Member Posts: 608
    edited March 2008

    Laura,

    I was a 36C before surgery had 650cc in my expanders and the Dr. exchanged them to 600cc.  I never kept track of how much they filled me at a time.  The only pain for me was in the end because they were just so big and uncomfortable.  Other than that I did not really have much pain with my Mastectomies either.  The nurses kept wanting to shoot me up with pain meds and I kept saying no.  I also went home the next day.  I am not sure why some people have more pain than others, but I have a high tolerance to pain.  I can even go and get work done on my teeth fillings without any novacaine as well. 

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  • Hanna60978
    Hanna60978 Member Posts: 815
    edited March 2008

    Hi,

    Laura you have started a poll on breast size before mastectomy and how it relates to pain experienced during expansion with expanders? OK, I'll contribute.  I had DD's before bilateral surgery.  One side was previously radiated.  I had the skin sparing technique with horizontal incision type mastectomy with alloderm.  The alloderm was put in the lower part of the breast skin. My pec muscle was elevated up from the bottom - sort of lifted up from the south while staying attached at the north (this is hard to explain!) then the expander was placed underneath.  The north part of the alloderm was then attached to the southern lifted edge of the pec muscle.  This was like creating a bridge between the pec muscle over the expander then attaching to the south pole of the breast pocket at the inframammary fold.  Whew.  I am describing this in geographical terms, not medical ones so I hope no doctors are reading this.....  Anyway, what this did apparently, is make it a lot easier on the stretching aspect of this process.  Now my skin sparing did not leave much in the way of skin!  This, I was told, had to happen because my previously radiated skin had to be trimmed back to only tissue with a healthy blood supply.  Otherwise, the alloderm would not attach to the skin and my skin would not grow into it.  Alloderm is like a garden lattice and your own tissue is supposed to grow into it like ivy growing up and into a garden lattice.  Good grief, my analogies are making this sound ridiculous. 

    Anyway, the port thing that the saline goes into is up in the top of the expander and that is where the infusions go in.  After my surgery I was told my expander was already filled to about 500cc's.  So I woke up pretty filled up.  I did take muscle relaxers regularly after the surgery for awhile because they helped much more than pain pills.  I don't know why except that I didn't seem to have surgical pain, mostly muscle stretching pain.  To this day, unless I've overdone it and my expander feels like its riding high or is out of whack somehow, I don't feel real pain.   There is definitely a weird feeling that is more noticable at various times than others.  Also, more of the muscle stretching and pressure after a fill which for me have been small but steady.  Generally in the 35cc range since time has passed.  So, I started at the get go filled to around 500cc's, have had small fills up to where I am now which is I think about 850cc's give or take 5cc's.  I'm sick of not being "done" yet like the February girls.  I'd like to reach up and not feel like an expander is there.  I'd like to lift things and not feel like I've stressed my muscle because I can tell when that happens.  When it happens I take a muscle relaxer and tylenol.  So, that's about it.  I wonder how implants will feel.  From what I'm hearing, way better than expanders so I'm looking forward to that.

    Jean~ I'm so glad you are out of those things and that your surgery went well.  You deserve a break from troubles forever!! 

    Gosh Margaret an H?  I hated DD bras because of the four inch four hook bands in the back.  Now being smaller for me was something I was always keeping in the back of my mind but never had the guts to get reduction.  Needing the surgery versus just wanting it gave me the guts to do it and I too am happier going braless.  I think at my age it is a more youthful look than big natural DD's hanging down.  I wonder about how implants will feel after exchange.  

    Jani!  Thank you and your DH for doing the pictures.  I think you should do some artsy type pictures too - you know like with something silky draping off your shoulders and nice lighting taken at an angle.  You know what I mean?  That lovely, Aphrodite look, maybe in black and white.  I'm looking forward to your sharing.

    OK, this is very long and when I see it, I think I may have to edit....

         

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  • suemed8749
    suemed8749 Member Posts: 1,151
    edited March 2008

    Laura: By immediate reconstruction, I meant expander being placed at the same time as the mastectomy. I'm starting out as a normal weight C cup, so I'll see what effect that has on the pain issue.

    Sue

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  • kes
    kes Member Posts: 559
    edited March 2008

    Hi Ladies,

    HannaB,

    Are you psychic or have you seen the book of reconstructions that you described to Jani? It is called "Reconstructing Aphrodite" and the pictures are done in black and white showing the womens face and they write about their story and the type of reconstruction that they had.The pictures are done exactly as you describe them. I borrowed it from the Nurse Practioner for Plastic Surgery at one of the hospitals here. I would recommend it highly to everyone considering reconstruction. I found it wonderful to see actual pictures of reconstruction as on the net there are a lot of pictures of breast augmentation but not much in the way of breast reconstruction.

    All Plastic Surgeons should have a copy of it,I think. The pictures were very tastefully done.

    Take Care,

    Kerry

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  • Hanna60978
    Hanna60978 Member Posts: 815
    edited March 2008

    Kerry?  I don't know what you mean sweetie...what are you talking about?  Jani made a book already?  I haven't seen it so no, I wish I had though.  What is happening?  I am out of it -- just been at Wally World for tooooo long on a Sunday afternoon!  Came home with brand spankin' new trash cans!!  Woo woo!  Well, what can I do, can't shop for bras yet like the February Babes!  I'm still a cami girl.

    Tell me more about Jani's book.....I really want to see it too!

    Got to go fill up my new trash cans now - such an exciting day~LOL

    Hanna

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  • kes
    kes Member Posts: 559
    edited March 2008

    HannaB,

    No, Jani did not make the book, but your description of the pictures that she should do say"I think that you should do some artsy type pictures too-you know like with something silky draping off your shoulders and nice lightening taken at an angle. You know what I mean? That lovely, Aphrodite look ,maybe in black and white."

    This is exactly the description of a book that has already been done and I read the whole thing before my bilat. mast. in January. This is too freaky!!!!! The book is called "Reconstructing Aphrodite" and it is GREAT for anyone considering breast reconstruction. I am going to have to google it and find out the authors of this book, but you described it to a tee. That is too weird!!!! WOW!!! Let you know as soon as I find out the authors of this book.

    Kerry

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  • kes
    kes Member Posts: 559
    edited March 2008

    Hi Ladies,

    Hanna,

    I just found the BOOK, and it has a web site. Check out www.reconstructingaphrodite.com The book is exactly as you described and if you have not seen it yet, then that is truly amazing. Check it out and let me know what you think.This is another example of freaky things that happen to me ALL the time.Hanna, the book is exactly as you described Jani's pictures that she should do.

    Kerry

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  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Member Posts: 1,376
    edited March 2008

    Kerry

    I had no over fill either. I was around 440, maybe 450, in one side. I think my PS assistant over filled my slightly once. He stopped her. My implants are 440 also. I took a peak inside my banadages and they look small, but what ever.....I am living with what they are I will not go thru this again. 

    My PS canceled the eblow surgery because he feared an infection. I think he just wanted to get that extra surgery in...the nipples...more money. This way I will agree to him doing  the nipples because he's got to open me up again for the elbow. I really wanted no more surgery. I guess I WILL feel better when looking in the mirror...more complete.

    Katie

    Good luck tomorrow. I had to wait longer than you for my first fill as I developed infections which required 2 surgeries. You may actually feel better after the first fill...I did. 

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