The Brand New Respectful Presidential Campaign Thread

I would hope that all OPINIONS are tolerated and that conservative views are not blasted.  I, personally, am going to vote for someone who is tough on illegal immigration and in California, a person who supports English speaking in the work place and on government forms.

Here's an article regarding language ... For safety reasons at my job, all persons must understand the English Language.

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Language has become the biggest obstacle to safety on some jobsites, as Spanish-speaking workers are finding more work in the electrical industry

The principles of workplace safety are easy enough to understand, but when employer and employee don't speak the same language, the message can become confused or lost altogether. And such a breakdown of communication may be at fault for the rising injury and fatality rates among Hispanic workers in the construction industry. As the Hispanic population grows in the United States and more Spanish-speaking workers find their way onto construction jobsites, job supervisors and foremen who lack any fluency in Spanish are finding it increasingly difficult to adequately demonstrate safe work practices to a workforce with limited English skills.

Early immigrants' motives for coming to the United States may have once been the search for religious freedom or to escape overbearing governments, but most of today's Hispanic émigrés come to the United States in search of work. "It's the land of opportunity," says Senaido Adam Trevino, chairman of the board for the Hispanic Contractors' Association of Dallas/Ft. Worth. "They can't make wages in Mexico like they can make here. They're hungry."

So hungry, in fact, that Hispanics accounted for more than half of the country's population growth from 2000 to 2001. Roughly 1.7 million Hispanics either immigrated to or were born in the United States in that year alone, helping that demographic's workforce swell to more than 14.5 million. Figures for the number of those workers who speak English aren't available, but with recent immigrants undoubtedly making up a sizeable portion of the growth, the potential for a workplace language barrier is growing.

"Anglo America has abandoned the construction industry," Trevino says. "African Americans have abandoned it, too. If you don't hire Hispanic workers, who are you going to hire? Some of them may not speak a lick of English, but they're hardworking people."

Hardworking or not, Spanish-speaking workers are dying on the jobsite more frequently than any other segment of the population. While workplace fatalities for Anglo and African Americans have steadily declined in recent years, the opposite is true for Hispanics. Deaths among that demographic rose from 815 in 2000 to 891 in 2001, the most recent years for which the Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) has figures.

Alarmed by that trend, the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) recently began to investigate workplace fatalities more closely to see how often language was a factor. The resultant data shows that, for example, 61% of workplace deaths in Dallas in 2001 involved workers with a limited understanding of English. "We have a lot of people dying, and a lot of it's because of simple ignorance," Trevino says.

Safety starts with communication. Ty Runyan won't hire Hispanic workers who don't have at least a working-level understanding of English. For reasons of safety, the president of Austin, Texas-based Titus Electrical Contracting, Inc. places such a high value on the ability to communicate with his workers that he considers anyone who isn't fluent in English a liability. "A fundamental of safety is clear, concise communication," he says. "And the primary method of communication is language. If you can't communicate effectively, then you can't maintain legitimate safety practices on the job."

grrrr--our tv has been on the fritz for almost a week--repairman finally came today and it is now working, but have missed the latest political updates, bashings, and campaign ads!

Such thought-provoking posts about immigration/language--I'm not sure what I think about it all.   I do think that if an immigrant comes to the US to stay permanently, they should be required to learn to speak English.  I don't think our government forms need to be printed out in a bunch of different foreign languages to accommodate non-English speaking permanent residents.   I think that it is incumbent on an indivudual who imigrates to a foreign country to have a new and better life, be prepared to assimilate themselves into that country's culture--including the language.   And, yes--learning a new language is extremely difficult!  

Is anyone familiar with a language called Esperanto?   It was developed in the late 1800's and was intended to be a second language for the whole world.   I've read some about it and lots on the internet about it, but I got sidetracked and haven't really followed-up with it.   But, the basis was that if everyone would learn it, all could keep their own language and the cultural aspects that implies yet still be able to converse with anyone in the world.   The concept is kind of fascinating.

I am not multi-lingual by any means.   I can get by in Spanish at about a 3-yr olds' level--but it's very basic, simple question/answer stuff--I can't hold an in-depth conversation.  When we travel, I try to learn the minimal basics ahead of time:   yes, no, please, thank you, take a phrase book--and as someone mentioned earlier--lots of hand gestures.   I had a hand gesture-talk with a French lady on a train years ago.   When she got off at her station, she gave me a big hug.  Hubby then asked what was that all about!   I had to laugh!   Because with not one word being exchanged I knew that the snow we were seeing was very unusual.   She knew that I was cold and miserable and homesick.  She knew I'd lost my earmuffs that kept the cold air out of my ears.  I knew she was heading home after work and was tired.......sometimes you just don't need words.

The US is not the only country dealing with an influx of immigrants (legal or illegal) and the resultant problems.    Other countries, England, the Netherlands, Germany, France are having similar issues.   The immigration problems are not restricted to the US--it is world-wide.  

thanks for letting me post my two cents worth!   As always, interesting and  thought-provoking thread!!

hugggssss, junie

For those of you interested in the immigration aspect of this thread, there's an interesting article in today's New York Times regarding immigration.  Here's the link:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/02/weekinreview/02leonhardt.html 

That would be me! Just got an email from an Obama volunteer. They are having a "watch the vote count" get-together at a restaurant in the next town. I think I'll go and meet some other "like" candidate supporters.



Just got my Obama bumper sticker on my car.



Am I mistaken, but isn't Obama suggesting that all Americans learn a second language? I think in California we will be learning Spanish in the next few years. My SIL works in construction. He learned his Spanish from the "guys" on the job sites. AND was able to get an upgraded job, as his current boss hires LEGAL Mexicans who need a supervisor to translate the job instructions from the boss to the worker.



I also have heard from a number of different students in college that in order to be successful in certain areas of business, it is imperative to speak a number of languages. My best friend's son migrated to the Netherlands. He has worked overseas for many, many years and speaks fluent French, Dutch, and some Italian, Spanish. He works for Heineken. He has been told that he speaks each language like a native w/out any American accent. Of course, not all of us are able to do that but often wish we could!



I think there will be more and more controversy about learning English and not providing forms in other languages as our population continues to change with immigration. I just hope that people will not place blame on the Mexicans as a group seeking entry into the United States. There are many people who might physically look Mexican but are from other countries.



I have lived on the Central Coast of CA for 18 years, and in the SF Bay Area prior to moving here all my life. I have seen incredible changes in those years. In our area many of the Mexicans have started their own construction or landscape businesses. Many are working as waiters in upscale restaurants (not dishwashers anymore) or own their own restaurant. There are more Mexican chefs also. These are mostly males. I see more female Mexicans moving into non-profit type environments and working white color clerical jobs. The population of Hispanics attending college/university is increasing every year. As these people gain college degrees, they will be moving up the "employment ladder" from blue collar to white collar. I applaud this.



This is their American dream. It may not be my or your American dream, but it is theirs, and I believe they are entitled to it. They are working very hard to improve themselves and life for their families. AND they are doing this with the never-ending discrimination placed upon them, both in the media and by groups of people who have subsumed the illegal with the legal immigrants from south of the border.



We have a long way to go in this country as far as opening our arms wide to those who immigrate here. We or our family members were once in their shoes. Yes, our relatives may have come for other reasons, but come they did. They too often faced discrimination. That is our history--which goes in cycles.



I say this is the time to break those cycles. What can we do as individuals to end this in a positive way and for the benefit of all of us?



grace

Well, I guess we just disagree. I have been watching the ads for jobs available. Any that deal with medical or public/government offices are requesting foreign language speakers. Most ask for Spanish speakers, however there have even been jobs that ask for Russian speakers.



The world is changing that is for sure. And our lovely state of California is changing more quickly than some others. When I go to the medical clinic I often see foreign language speakers. One of the first questions the medical staff person asks is, "do you need a translator?" especially after it appears that the individual is not understanding the instructions being given or the question asked.



As for the fellow in Holland. He left the United States after 4 years of college. He returns only for vacation. He says he will always live abroad. He finds other countries much more "forward thinking" than the United States.



"legally..whatever that means." Essentially, someone can be legally in the United States for a variety of reasons. She/he is going to school, is here from another country and has a work visa, or someone is here with a green card. The adult children of parents who came across the border illegally are considered US citizens. Can't think of any others right now, but I'm sure there are some.



Many of the colleges in our area have a policy about "illegal," and that is the same as the military/gay issue: Don't ask/don't tell. The community colleges register any student who applies and provides them with the same assistance as any other student. Community Colleges serve all who come--there is no admittance policy that limits the number of students at the school. All students are to have the same services and be treated equally. I'm sure if a poll were taken many of these students who have since graduated from a cc as well as a university/4 yr school are not picking strawberries or artichokes, or working in a vegetable packing plant as their parents did before them. They are educated and gainfully employed in this country and they pay their taxes also (unlike the very wealthy).



I think this whole election business is very frustrating. I wish we could get rid of electoral college and in Washington DC get rid of the lobbyists. Unfortunately most of our politicians are in the pockets of the lobbyists. No matter how high our ideal is for a President, none of the candidates would be able to live up to it! What does that mean--settling for less? How can I vote in November if the candidate I choose doesn't win at the convention, and I can't stand the other party's candidate? Do I throw my vote away and write in someone? Or do I throw my vote away and vote for Nader? This is the system that in the past has disallusioned our young people. They see Obama as a way for change to happen. They have seen what 8 years of not getting involved in politics has cost us. I don't have the answers and I expect that no one else does.



I agree with whoever said that no matter what is written here, each of us will vote the way we want. That's fine. That's what the political process is for. I'm just happy that I can cast a vote for President. I'm glad I don't live in Cuba or China. I have a lot to be thankful for.



grace

Well this is where I disagree with you and Shirley. How do you know that all these people getting this supposedly free medical care and education are illegals? Is it how they look? is it how they dress? Is it because they speak Spanish to each other? Or some other foreign language? To me it's insulting that anyone can assume these are illegals. And I don't care how big or how high you build that wall or how many vigilante groups or rangers are put down on that wall to keep people out, they will continue to come and come and come. The wall is not the solution. Nafta is not the solution. I don't see any problem with putting out calls for bilingual speakers. Would you feel as badly for deaf people that need translators? Would it be sad for them if they had no way to communicate in school or in a work site? Their language is considered a foreign language in the education code.



Perhaps we wouldn't be in such disagreement over education and speaking more than one language if our schools required introduction and classes in foreign languages as well as English. Perhaps it is time we started to catch up with the rest of the world. Perhaps it is time we actually taught the children in our schools to be global members of the earth. We may think we have the smartest and the best country in the world, but IMHO we are becoming less and less of a country that is respected and looked up to. I'm sad that we are allowing one groups' American Dream to be stifled because we can't figure out a way to help out our neighbors to the South.



These aren't illegal "aliens"--they may be illegal but they are human beings. The last time I looked aliens were defined as from outer space or somewhere other than the planet Earth.



ESL isn't taught just for "illegal aliens." ESL is taught for the group of people defined as English as a Second Language learners. They even have these ESL classes in college--community colleges to boot. There are people coming here from all over the world who need ESL classes TO LEARN ENGLISH, that's why we have them!



You tell me exactly how many "illegal aliens" get free medical care last year, how many of their "illegal alien children" got a free education, and how many tax dollars go to these two items in the budget, as well as the site where you found the statistics, and I will certainly consider changing my tune. Until then we agree to disagree.



grace

Here is an interesting artcile about immigration to Holland for thoe of your who mistakenly think that all is well there. BTW notice that they are very open to emigres from affluent countries such as those from US .

http://www.rferl.org/featuresarticle/2006/04/2752a95e-e5f6-4886-a65c-75618628a283.html 

Okay Amy

I had to jump in because of your comment about Holland. I just read a book that you have to read because it may open your mind.

The Book is called "While Europe Slept", by Steven Bawer. The author is a gay American who moved to Amsterdam in the late 90's because he, like you, felt that he would find more tolerance there. After being beaten for being gay, he realized that the hate he found there was a lot worse than the intolerance he found here. He was a NewYorker. Anyway his point is that Islamic extremism is ruining Europe and taking advantage of their tolerance to the point that they now want to change European laws so that they do not have to abide by them. He talks about Islamic women in Europe who are beaten by their husbands, but cannot do anything about it because they are so afraid, and the government looks the other way. I could go on and on but the book says it all. Mind you, he moved there well before 9-11 and he still found things happening there that had nothing to do with Bush or republicans. I doubt that you will read it because it shows a viewpoint that you do not want to hear, but it is out there if you want to educate yourself on what is really going on in Holland. Since this book is written by a liberal, democrat, gay man, you cannot say that he is just some Bush puppet trying to scare people to vote for a republican. I wish people would open up their eyes to the fact that facist extremists of today are using the same tactics as they did before WWII. They are blaming America today, just as they blamed the jews back then. And when they hear Americans bashing their country, they become empowered. The European press, the European textbooks, love to twist the truth so that America looks bad. This will not change if we have Obama or Hillary for president. We are there scapegoat and we always will be. This is not naive republican thinking. This is the facts. Go there and you will see for yourself as I have done.

Don't get this comment: "I wish people would open up their eyes to the fact that facist extremists of today are using the same tactics as they did before WWII. They are blaming America today, just as they blamed the jews back then."



Seriously, can you please explain to me the comparison to the Jews being targeted in WWII to America (as a country) being targeted today? How can you compare a country with the majority of its population as white people to a group of people who have historically been targeted by anti-Semitics from countries all over the world?



Yes, I'm sure there are instances in other countries where gays are being beaten and discriminated against. There are also instances in these same countries where there are people like Amy, myself, and others who see the damage the Bush administration has done by not doing anything except warmongering for 8 years. If we want to end this nightmare, many of us see that unless we vote a Democratic President into office we are in danger of warmongering continuing under the Republican Commander-in-Chief.



There have been groups of people in various countries that have been bashing America for ages. This is not new. The discussions that go on on this board are not bashing America. Perhaps your perspective is that is what we are doing. From our perspective we are having discussions and conversations about the problems that we face in America. The same is true for the candidates running for President. Their debates contain many messages about what is wrong with America right now and what needs to change. This does not "empower" these "fascist extremists." I have been overseas and I never experienced what you did. I am sorry your experience was so negative. I am sure that it made you angry to see people who are not Americans talk badly about us.



What I found when I went overseas or talked to International students on our campus was that, they never equated what this administration executed with the people of this country. They always saw the good in the people here and felt badly that we were upset with Bush's war.



I don't believe that any Republican is a "naive thinking" person. Just as I don't believe that about Democrats. I haven't seen or heard any Bush puppets trying to get me to vote Republican using scare tactics. Where are they all?



grace

I thought this was the "Brand New Respectful Presidential Campaign Thread."



I don't think it's fair to attack one person. To say that Amy believes the grass is greener on the other side or call her an " idealist" is making a personal judgement about one person.



I didn't realize that poverty was a requirement to enter the United States. People come to this country to live for a variety of reasons.



I agree with Anneshirley that we were previously having a polite discussion. Now people who respond on this thread are being ridiculed with American intolerance. I can see that it is alive and well across this country.



Please, can we return to our polite discussion and candidates' views and ours on this thread. That was why Amy started this. I want to talk about the election process and not get sidetracked anymore into race issues. There has always been racism in this country, and unless we get educated it will continue.



grace

Inna--"Free meat and milk like in Soviet Union." Italians are very proud of their food.  In fact, they believe it is the best in the world.  I have had many a discussion with Italians, in Italy, concerning the reputation that the French have for the best food in the world.  They completely disagree. In their view (and perhaps they're right) italy has the best food in the world.  In the largest city in Umbria, Perugia, there are just a few restaurants that serve foreign food, and most of those who visit these restaurants (Chinese and Indian, mainly) are ex-pats.  No Italian that I've ever met would ever want anything like anywhere else.  I was playing off your use of "like" from a language perspective.  Sorry if you interepreted that as saying you're a liar.  That wasn't my intention. But since you don't speak Italian, you might question if the sign actually read as your friend translated it.   

I took great exception to the following statement, and my exception has nothing whatsoever to do with with Italian food, or what you did or did not see in Italy thirty years ago:  You are so right. Some people say that Europe could be lost soon and America will be the last bastion. It's scary to think about this.

That statement, referring to the post above it, scares the daylights out of me! 

Grace--I disagree that people in other countries are not routinely bashing Americans, of late. They are.  We were living there when the war began and only left at the end of 2005. Italians, more than any other western Europeans, have always been madly in love with Americans.  There were  anti-war marches all across Umbria when I lived there (at least one a week), and many Italians were very angry, not just at Bush, but at Americans.  To quote them, you have a democracy; didn't the people vote for this man twice, so aren't they equally responsible for this war?  

So now that I responded to your post Inna, I will not post to this thread again. I don't like words like "facist extremists," "Islamic extremists," "last bastion," 'scary to think about," and the many other expressions that got us into this horrible war in the first place.  The next thing you know, I'll be so annoyed, I'll be campaigning for Obama, just because his name is "Obama," which really wouldn't be fair to Hillary.   

I'm always breaking my word--oh, well, politics does have its pull on me.

I've always agreed, Amy, that the overwhelming numbers of African-Americans voting for Obama is perfectly understandable.  I'd probably do the same.  If I had been old enough when JFK ran, I probably would have voted for him because he was the first Irish American Catholic to run.  Nowadays, I could care less and so could most Catholics because it's so routine to have a Catholic candidate.  However, it does give Obama a distinct advantage over Clinton that has nothing to do with his qualifications or platform.  Under normal circumstances, Hillary would have been the African-American candidate. Remember, she has so many friends in Texas because she worked there for months trying to get African-Americans registered to vote when she graduated from college.   

I agree, voting or not voting because of a person's race or sex is both sad and unAmerican.  But I did read just this weekend, in the Times, that in a survey, 5% of those surveyed said they wouldn't vote for a person because of his race but 17% said they wouldn't vote for a person because she's a woman.  Hillary is at a much greater disadvantage. 

I can only hope that it all works out in the wash and that whichever one wins the nomination is our next president.  I don't think fighting it out hurts the process.  I actually think it helps.  

I probably will stick to the other thread, only because going back and forth is starting to confuse me, and that I intend to blame on chemo and not on age! Which leads me to say, that I think McCain's age is an advantage in this race.  He used to have a much worse temper.  With age, we mellow. 

ADK-Anne.  I think campaigning with Bush will hurt.  My own belief is that McCain won't have Bush campaign with him, except in the red states and maybe even not there. 

I tend to agree with you, Anneshirley. I actually think that McCain will not ask for any additional support from Bush and hope that people forget about today. JMHO