Presidential debates on ABC right now-both parties

I like Walter, the boston terrier

Mizsissy,

Thank you for your astute words. There is a lot in this country to worry about. And I would add, no matter who wins the nomination and/or the election.



My husband and I have talked about all the issues you bring up. Yes, public radio is a great way to become educated about the issues.



I am saddened that we have to send our young men and women to Iraq to fight a war that was not necessary in the first place. And one we will never win--just like Vietnam. When I hear Bush talk about the "terrorists," I wonder if he ever looks at himself in the mirror and sees the terrorist he is.

He not only declared war on Saddam, he declared war on innocent men, women & children. They have lost everything because Bush didn't correct his mistake earlier in the game--guess he didn't want to lose face and civilian deaths and destruction didn't matter to him.



i can see why on other blogs, Bush is often compared to Hitler. Now that's scary.



grace

Quotes of Day

"To hold that there's to be no criticism of the president is morally treasonous to the Republic."  -Theodore Roosevelt 

"Those who would trade Freedom for Security deserve neither."  -Benjamin Franklin 

Thank you PRAmy, Mizsissy, & Allyson for the reality check! it's a breath of fresh air to come back to this thread today after yesterday. For a while I thought all the questioners of Bush and his antics, plus the attempt to insist that those of us who did so were unpatriotic were the only people on this thread!



I firmly believe that this country was founded to include the right of Freedom of Speech. It seems to have disappeared on this thread until today.



Obama said (in last night's speech): Cynicism is a sorry form of wisdom.

That caught my attention because some of the questions asked here by more conservative women, appear to be asked with much cynicism.



I wish we could all agree to disagree and present issues and ideas without judgement by others. I have tried to not judge any who respond on this thread. What I write is my opinion, and I am entitled to that, just as everyone else is.



As far as Hillary goes, she keeps saying she is ready to work from day one, but she doesn't give any particulars about what she will do, only generalities. She too talks about change, but she started that after Obama. I think his momentum will carry him to the convention, and I hope he gets the nomination.



I can't answer Amy's question because I don't think Hillary can beat McCain in a general election, although I would vote for Hillary in the hopes of keeping McCain out of office. He just scares me. Listen to his voice. He has had a speech coach work with him. He talks very melodically and ends his sentences on this slow down note. Very hypnotic (and scary).



I listened to all the candidates speeches last night and came away believing that McCain will win the Republican nomination and if Huckabee continues to get close to McCain in some primary states, that he will most likely be the VP nominee. I really think that is what he is vying for. I think Romney is really out of it. He is too wooden and stiff and seemingly unreachable.



If Hillary wins the nomination, I wonder if she will choose Edwards or Richardson, or whom?



If Obama wins the nomination, same thing? Not sure who he will choose. I think for both the Democratic candidates that Edwards might be more of a hazard than a plus.



I wonder if Obama ends up as our next President, if he will do what Abraham Lincoln did? Lincoln brought together both his supporters and detractors as his cabinet members. In the book, "A Team of Rivals," that is spelled out. It was a huge, historical change that no president has done since.

I see Obama as truly able to unite this country and help re-polish our very tarnished image in the world.



I too have wondered about Obama's safety. When we look at all the upcoming leaders in this country who were assassinated, it is frightening to think that it could happen again. I pray not. I pray that he is well protected on this journey to the White House.



Perhaps, Bush has been safe from assassination because if he was, we would be stuck with Cheney for our President. That would truly be a nightmare. My hubby calls him Darth Vader.



Missed the dog show last night, but I love the border collies and those breeds that have the long gorgeous hair that moves as they run down to the end of the arena and back. Beautiful!



And the little ones are just adorable--I keep telling my dh that I want a miniature poodle next time around--no shedding. My hardwood floors look like I run a grooming facility at times! We have an Akita/Shepard mix, and a Border Collie/Flat coated Retriever/Coyote mix. They are a handful but fun to watch.



grace

I do not think Obama would choose Hillary as a running mate, because I don't think she would add to his ticket. I don't want to think this-- but I can't help to think that independents who are unsure but willing to vote for a black or a woman would have a problem with both candidates being minority. When I posed an Obama/Richardson ticket to one of my friends he said that might be too ethnic to win but agreed it would be a good ticket.

On the other hand, I think if Clinton is the nominee she almost has to pick Obama because that will be her only chance to win.

Thanks Anne, you are no slouch with your writing either!



Yeah, I think Edwards would be a deterrent as a running mate. I doubt if Hillary would even accept the VP nominee if Obama even asked her--and I can't see him doing that.



Plus, I don't think Obama would accept the VP nominee position if Hillary even offered it to him.



They both seem pretty set in attaining the Presidential nomination at the Democratic Convention.



I don't think Richardson is really seen as "too ethnic." My dh, who seems to notice those kinds of things (just because I have drilled diversity stuff into him from my job), dh didn't even know he was Hispanic/Latino/whatever the "label," and also because the last name of Richardson--doesn't sound ethnic. I think many people in the US would be ignorant of that. I think he is often seen as white. I just like his forthrightness and honesty. Wish we had more candidates like these two.



Oh well, we will just have to wait and see. Our speculation is up in the air and it will be interesting to see what actually happens in late Summer!



Speaking of that, doesn't the date of the convention seem awfully close to the November election? I wonder what the race will be like with just barely 2 months of campaigning and debate available for the nominees to win over some of the independents and those who were for another candidate, as well as moving voters from Republican to Democratic, and vice versa?



Has the Democratic Convention always been this late? I can't remember. I blame it on my medicine brain!



grace

During this campaign, one of the key arguments for Hillary's candidacy is that she's tested, vetted and ready to lead on day one. How does this factor into voters' decisions now that it appears John McCain will be the Republican nominee? Let's envision how a general election between the Democratic nominee and John McCain will unfold, based on recent elections:

The GOP Attack Machine Will Redefine the Democratic Candidate; Hillary Has Withstood That Process. As soon as the Democratic nominee is selected, the entire force of the GOP attack machine will bear down on that nominee. This attack machine has been built and honed over decades; it is formidable, and employs all forms of media, from talk radio to major newspaper columns to television, email, blogs, websites, direct mail, and extensive ground networks. It was able to skew public perceptions of two well-respected Democrats, Al Gore and John Kerry, creating impressions about them that were wildly out of step with reality. Hillary Clinton has withstood the full brunt of that machine and actually emerged stronger.

Sen. McCain Will Run on National Security; Hillary Wins That Argument.  When it came to national security, "strong and wrong" won out over "right and weak" in the 2002 and 2004 elections. With Hillary, that is not and will not be an issue: Based on what they know of her and her experience, voters believe Hillary is fully ready to be commander in chief. She will be strong and right. Voters know she has the right policies - ending the war in Iraq, re-establishing our relations with our allies - and they know she has the strength of leadership that America's next president will need in a world that can turn dangerous in an instant. As such, the Republicans will not be able to play the national security card against Hillary Clinton, like they are now doing against Senator Obama, and that makes her a fundamentally stronger candidate against John McCain. Case in point is what George Bush said on Sunday morning about Sen. Obama, "I certainly don't know what he believes in.  The only foreign policy thing I remember he said was he's going to attack Pakistan and embrace Ahmadinejad."  With Hillary, the Republicans' national security argument blunted and the election debate will shift to healthcare and the economy - areas of decisive strength for Hillary.

Sen. Obama's Negatives Will Rise; Hillary's Are Already Factored In.  Sen. Obama himself has been saying that even after a year, voters in places like Texas and Florida don't really know him that well. So how much do independent voters know about Barack Obama, his voting record and his past positions?  Even less than Democrats know. For example, he recently told voters in Idaho that he favors the Second Amendment - but he didn't mention that, in the past, he supported a complete ban on all handguns.  If he were the nominee, the Republican attack machine would have immediately rolled out his full record - and his independent Idaho support would have evaporated. So far, the Republicans have been laying low. Sen. Obama has never faced a credible Republican opponent or the Republican attack machine, so voters are taking a chance that his current poll numbers will hold up after the Republicans get going. With Hillary, the GOP has already tried just about every attack and has failed.  Those attacks are already factored in her ratings, where she remains competitive against Sen. McCain.  But when it comes to Sen. Obama this is a big unknown, and the likelihood is that his negatives will rise.

The Resiliency of Sen. Obama's Coalition Will Be Tested; Hillary's Coalition Is Stronger. The grind of a general election will erase the freshness and excitement of the primary season and the success that Sen. Obama has earned in states he has little chance of winning in November will erode. It may even crumble. Sen. Obama will have to fall back on core Democratic voters to stay competitive with McCain. But this is where Hillary has already built a powerful base, with overwhelming support among women, Latino voters, and other stalwarts of the Democratic Party. Hillary's coalition, which has carried her to victory across the country, is a winning coalition against Sen. McCain since it draws from the voters Sen. McCain will need to win. Look no further than Super Tuesday for proof: Hillary won by double digits in the big states that any Democrat must win to defeat John McCain. And in Missouri, Hillary won all the swing areas, getting 110 of 115 counties.

Current Poll Numbers Don't Tell the Story of What Will Happen: Sen. Obama Routinely Underperforms While Hillary Overperforms.  After winning the Democratic nomination in 2004, John Kerry vaulted to a 17 point lead over George Bush.  Even on Election Day, virtually every pollster said John Kerry would win. It did not happen. Today, commentators are touting a Time poll that shows Sen. Obama faring slightly better than Hillary Clinton against John McCain.  Last week, the pundits were using a handful of polls to argue that Hillary Clinton would lose NJ, CA and MA. None of that happened. Instead, Hillary Clinton has repeatedly confounded pollsters and the chattering class by doing better on Election Day than the polls suggested she would -- in NH, MA, NY, NJ, CA, and AZ.  Her 2000 election was no different - exit polls suggested she might lose a close race but she ended up winning a landslide victory when the actual votes were counted.

Hillary is the best candidate to take on Sen. McCain and defeat him. She has outperformed at the ballot box throughout her career. She will neutralize the argument on national security so the election will turn on her ability to manage our economy and reform healthcare. The GOP will not be able to increase her negatives in a way they can with an untested candidate. And Hillary's core voters - working class, women, Latinos, Catholics - are exactly the voters that comprise the key swing voters the party has needed in the past to win. This is an observation I made in the Washington Post after the 2004 election, "Middle-aged women and Hispanic voters were key voting blocs that made the difference, swinging the vote from Kerry to Bush. In fact, in 2004 women made up 54 percent of the U.S. electorate, the highest percentage in history. Their interest in and impact on politics has been increasing

This thread is scary. No other opinion is welcomed.

Perhaps a republican thread could be started so those of us who wish to discuss what we like about this country can be posted safely.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but that applies to those of us on the other side of the aisle as well.

Also, if you are going to cite a political talking points memo from the Hillary Clinton campaign, written by her spokesman, it should be noted. NYbeth I just think it represents the best interest of fairness so the readers can consider the source of what you provided above.

Dont go, Katie.

Here is something for the hillary supporters (Beth.Anyone else?)

http://www6.comcast.net/news/articles/politics/2008/01/11/Obama.Endorsement/

His momentum is gathering more & more speed.I dont think we really have to DISCUSS hillary anymore!

I always avoid political discussions.I'm a lifetime Demmy, and know the world is full of Republicans.It really doesnt MATTER what people say in forums.The answer is on election day.

But it's hard to see some Demmys veer off to support an obviously inept candidate !I dont think we've ever had sch a perfect candidate as Obama!Not since Kennedy!(OR such a dishonest hack as hillary!)

(And yes, "non-issues" matter VERY much!One commentator on CNN was just explaining that many, many voters vote by the "way he spells his name or wears his hair"!Obama, when seen, is clearly bright and magnetic.(They refused "Lurch" because he wasnt compelling.Gore too.)But Obama is VERY compelling!He will make us a WONDERFUL president.

(I am not naive enough to expect a newly-elected president to FIX everything in a few months!All I want is to be able to hold my head up overseas again!)

Please dont go!OR be upset.

Beth! Hillary is neither tested, vetted nor ready!Did you not read thew "Hillary's "experience" lie article I posted?PLEASE read it!You're too bright a young woman to be ignorant of these FACTS!

Hillary is no more tested thanObama.They are both junior senators.Yes she is much older.But has not been more than a junior senator.

And she wont ALLOW her personal finances to be VETTED.And READY???A little.... schitzy, is my definition.Maybe they could adjust her meds.Bullying, shouting, crying, last night a phoney smile platered on her face...READY for therapy, maybe.

Mizsissy's quote:

"Quotes of Day

"To hold that there's to be no criticism of the president is morally treasonous to the Republic."  -Theodore Roosevelt 

"Those who would trade Freedom for Security deserve neither."  -Benjamin Franklin"

First of all I do criticize Bush.  I don't bow down to him, nor any other president.  I don't believe Bush is one bit like Hitler...some analogy someone here alluded to.  I don'l like the amnesty program he has proposed (very much like McCain's).  Mexico do not want these citizens back.  They can't take care of them so they want the US to take care of them.  Good gosh! 

Who is trading freedom for security?  Is it the long, drawn out lines in the airport you are referring to.  If you're referring to the Patriot Act, it hasn't affected me one bit.  I have NOTHING to hide.

Quotes from Grace's post on page 19 that I would like to respond to.  I was told that she didn't want me to go.  That I had the right to voice my opinion.

"Thank you PRAmy, Mizsissy, & Allyson for the reality check! it's a breath of fresh air to come back to this thread today after yesterday. For a while I thought all the questioners of Bush and his antics, plus the attempt to insist that those of us who did so were unpatriotic were the only people on this thread!

I can see that you do not really want to discuss, agree or disagree with us who STRONGLY disagree with you.  I think what you missed is that bashing our country makes some of us a little sick.  Do you think all the "woes" are the president's fault?  What you (I really mean you all) forget was the war was voted on and passed.  Now, some of those who voted want to back track and say "foul."  Not buying it!

I don't believe Bush is beyond mistakes.  I can't understand why any president would WANT to go into war.  I do not think Bush compares to Hitler.  I'm glad everyone has that freedom to condemn, compare, and outright disagree, but personally I'm a bit tired of hearing the same ole same ole.  And this man had a heavy load put upon his shoulders whether any of you can see that or not.  And, don't forget that I don't agree with everything he's done are is doing.

"I firmly believe that this country was founded to include the right of Freedom of Speech. It seems to have disappeared on this thread until today.

Until today?  Grace, that's because there's been no one here to disagree with any of you except for the dems who are discussing which dem nominee...Obama or Hillary.  That's why it has been "a breath of fresh air.

"Obama said (in last night's speech): Cynicism is a sorry form of wisdom.
That caught my attention because some of the questions asked here by more conservative women, appear to be asked with much cynicism."

What?  I believe there are enough cynics to go around in both parties .

"I wish we could all agree to disagree and present issues and ideas without judgement by others. I have tried to not judge any who respond on this thread. What I write is my opinion, and I am entitled to that, just as everyone else is."

Yes, you are entitled to your opinion.  However, there have been judgements made from "your" side also.  There is one person on this thread that I can think of that will point out my belief/beliefs as being wrong e.g. abortion.  It's my right to think ESPECIALLY young children should not be allowed an abortion without their parental consent.  Don't give my kid a aspirin, and don't you dare perform an abortion on my child. 

There are conservative women who believe in pro-choice.  But I'll bet there are many who believe like I do when it comes to children having abortions.  For example, 37 yo daughter who now has two children believes what I did 20 years ago was right.  I stopped her 15 yo friend from having an abortion..called her minister.  I won't go into details.  This "child" was going to do something that she may have regretted later.  I lingered over what to do, what to do.  I made my mind up the night or two before she was to have her abortion to call her pastor.  They met here and talked..he, his wife and the kids went to their parents.  In the end it worked out.  They are happily married with two children. 

"I can't answer Amy's question because I don't think Hillary can beat McCain in a general election, although I would vote for Hillary in the hopes of keeping McCain out of office. He just scares me.  Listen to his voice. He has had a speech coach work with him. He talks very melodically and ends his sentences on this slow down note. Very hypnotic (and scary)." 

OMG!  You are kidding, right!?  Perhaps YOU are being the CYNICAL one here.

"I too have wondered about Obama's safety. When we look at all the upcoming leaders in this country who were assassinated, it is frightening to think that it could happen again. I pray not. I pray that he is well protected on this journey to the White House."

OMG again!  Talk about CYNICAL!  The terrorists would LOVE Obama in office.  So, they're not going to assassinate him.  Why would they?  He's going to bring our troops home so they can go in and take over Iraq and whoever else they can get their hands on.  Now, if he picked Hillary for VP that may be another problem.  If he's knocked off, she'd be Prez!

Really, who do you think would assassinate him?

I'm signing off of this thread.  I'm reminding myself of another forum I used to belong to where people would say, I'M NOT COMING BACK, and here they'd come anyway.    I agree with Katie that we need our own thread. 

Shirley

Hi All,

I'm a yellow dog democrat. I am exhausted with all the political stuff though...I have diagnosed myself with "electile dysfunction". VOTE whomever your choice may be!

Margaret

Me the same, Ally!!I, too, am working with Obama's campaign!I do believe it's really important for the country that we have hm for president.

And yes, I dislike arguing .But I cant resist posting relevent things here.

And Margaret, yep I guess I'm a YellowDog Demmy.A link-posting one.

Thank you, Allyson, for the great job you did in Conn!!

Pa is a crummy state for Demmys.Because one is fooled into thinking it's great.Pittsburgh, Philly, all Democratic.But PA is a big state which is mostly populated by Repubs.And our dear GOVERNOR , and the mayor of Philly, have both endorsed hillary.(Why?Because she campaigned to Rendell, for years, as she did to NY and NJ)

So we will have an uphill fight here.But I'll be ready!I'm an old hand at calling Dems out to vote on election day.

And havent you noticed any time you wear your Obama button that Obamacans come up to you, like Mzsissy and her mom, saying they are Repubs but are voting for Obama?People know what's good!

Haha {{Puppy}}!! I have never been offered oceanfront property in Arizona before!