Rants about scans
Comments
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As we all know, ILC is a sneaky beast. So are the mets. I know of many women who had a heck of a time getting their ILC mets diagnosed, b/c they are so hard to pick up on the scans.
Rant #1--my oncologist (of whom I am not fond but with whom I am currently stuck) said to me, "Well, even if there's thickening on your scans, you can't go around having every thickening biopsied." Um, well, if I have ILC, maybe I should.
Rant #2--I went for a pelvic u/s this week at the urging of my second opinion onc, due to vague pelvic discomfort over the past year. As we all know, ILC likes to go weird places like the ovaries, abdominal lining, etc. Nowhere on my chart did it say I had ILC--just bc. When I left, I told the tech to be sure to tell the radiologist that I have ILC, and she said OK, but I could tell she wasn't getting it.
Rant #3--My onc told me that if the PET is clear, then all is well. But I met a woman on these boards with extensive abdominal and ovarian ILC mets who only had a very small area of suspicion on her PET. Also had a pelvic u/s that didn't show much. On her insistance, she had her ovaries out, and lo and behold, there was cancer all over the place in her abdomen and ovaries.
Not that I'm trying to borrow trouble, but I just don't feel like the radiologists reading our scans truly know what they're looking for. My mom is Stage IV IDC, and my dad died of pancreatic cancer, so I'm a little paranoid in the Stage IV department.
OK, rant over!

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Geesh...rant is right! This is the perfect place to do it!
rant #1 - I can't believe the "you can't go around biopsing every thickening"...OMG - just when I thought I'd heard it all! Yikes...
rant #2 - See my response to you in the thread where you just posted the 2007 Italian Study. Especially the part about pathologists not knowing when a patient has an ILC history.
rant #3 - That's scary! What do we do to protect ourselves?
I'm sorry about your Mom and Dad.
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Thanks, Laura.
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Nash,
It sounds like you've identified in your rants three helpful approaches to self- advocate for in ILC.
Rant #1: Thickening of the breast tissue, with hx of LDIS and especially ILC: Be persistent: get it biopsied if your doctor confirms it's presence. Talk with your doctor about breast MRI, but be mindful of MRI limitations too, in can miss small findings, and can't specify what it does see among other. Tissue biopsy yields cells for the pathologist. Stay in touch literally with your breast surgeon in these circumstances, and try to choose one who is pro-active on biopsy.
Rant #2 and #3: Imaging studies: a clinical history of ILC ordinarily heightens the awareness of the radiologist to vague alterations, small findings on scans, but your right, only if they know while they read the study, and are engaged to look. Ask for a second reading on all scans: many hospitals will do this to up their pick up rate. Perhaps ILC is a situation where this should be mandatory, but at least you can try by asking. Since ILC has a somewhat higher propensity to go places where IDC doesn't, your oncology-radiology team need to work together to look for early signs of change from prior scans. Tell your team of your wish for this; a gentle or direct nudge in this direction is appropriate if you sense it is being overlooked.
Your gut instinct steered you well when you reminded the tech you had ILC. But just to be sure they "get it", why don't you call tomorrow and speak with the head technician or so and ask her or him to ensure the radiologist is fully aware of your type of breast cancer. Or ask if you may come in and review your scan with the radiologist yourself. Most doctors are happy when patient's look out for themselves, and this way you get to meet the doctor responsible for the interpretation of your scan.
Lastly, why don't you approach your personal monitoring with what is now encouraged in ovarian cancer patients for early symptoms: bleeding irregularities, vague pelvic pain (I think you said this is why you had an ultrasound), abdominal bloating and gas, and early satiety or sense of fullness. In abdominal ILC and ovarian cancer, the locations may be similar and hence the early symptoms similar, imo. If these symptoms are present and you continue to be bothered, seek out a gynecologic oncologist and ask to review your concerns with her or him.
You're right to rant. Hopefully the medical community is looking for ways to improve scans for ILC.
I am aware of one new FDG PET study in Canada that may help an ER+ ILC (and IDC) patient potentially examine the abdomen/body: the investigator has put a compound that binds to the estrogen receptor (ER) in the intravenous glucose mixture with the goal of highlighting active ER disease. What a novel idea! Highlight the receptor itself. This is in clinical trial, yet may prove to change PET's tremendously in the sense of personalized PET medical scans.
All the best to you and all LCIS and ILC women and men as you push for answers and progress is made.
Tender -
Good suggestions, Tender, thanks. I didn't think about reviewing the scan with the radiologist.
I actually did go to a gyn onc, who only ordered the pelvic u/s to appease me. She didn't even do a pelvic exam, since I'd "had one six months prior" at my well-woman exam with my regular gyn. Nor did she want to hear about ILC mets to the ovaries. Part of my problem is that I just haven't found very good docs yet.
Interesting about the ER binding PET compound.
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Wanted to clarify rant #1--the onc was talking about biopsying thickenings in the organs on CT or PET--for example, a bowel thickening. She thankfully is viligent about a new primary or local recurrence in the breast.
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Gosh, Nash...
If your gyn oncologist doesn't do a pelvic exam, a simple test to evaluate for thickening as we keep talking about, and doesn't even "connect" or wish to consider your history of ILC, then what good is she?
You're right, fire her, and if you can, energy wise and other (maybe let your insurance company know about the limitations pertaining to your past pelvic evaluation), find a new gyn oncologist. The American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology has a list on their web site, and ASCO has a list by zip code proximity in the People Living with Cancer site.
So sorry this has become such a frustrating ordeal. There was a commentary in ASCO Journal about how oncologists should listen more to their patients (oops) not to long ago....
Keep confidence in your instincts.
Tender -
Thanks, Tender. Finding compentent medical care has been a real challenge for me since my diagnosis. Couple that with the fact that my mom is Stage IV bc with a totally different type of tumor, and it's been a really, really big challenge.
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Dear nash and other ladies!
I have to say I agree with you all. I have had the same experiences with the doctors. Everytime I went for tests with my mum, there was always put down just breast cancer, and nothing else.That is why I had big arguing with one her doctor for asthma last year when she insisted on that scan that there is probably a metastasis of breast caner.I freaked out that I do not believe it and that it is impossible because I know lobular does not tend to metastasize to lungs especially not ER+++.Well it turned out I was the one that was right and she was absolutely wrong.I said to her that she is really bad doctor and she needs to learn a lot more of breast cancer, especially lobular.I mean I really was angry.You can not just say everything that is picked up on scans after anamnesis of breast cancer,that is metastasis.
And yes, it is time to let all of doctors know, that there are many many kinds of breast cancers, and lobular carcinoma needs to be more explored and studied.I promise you I will do my best in the future that these things will go better because I really see even at our Institute of oncology that the majority of oncologists think ductal and lobular are the same, BUT THIS IS WRONG!!!
I just want to tell you, lobular ladies, insist on telling the radiologists when you go for tests that your cancer is LOBULAR and tends to metastasize to different parts of the body and it causes thickening, generally.It is up to you to do that and after the test you have rights to ask them if he/she had a look for that.Otherwise you have to go to the other better one.
I am really sorry you have to deal with that, but sometimes it is hard.I am currently doing preparations for my mum"s oncotype, and I would like to say firsty they said no to me, and then after arguing and telling them they are wrong and so on, they said okey.I am glad to have one pathologist that always supports me no matter what!
Kind regards from cold Slovenia:)
Matic
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Dear Matic,
From what I can see, you are going to be ONE GREAT DOCTOR! Your zest for specifics in lobular cancer, both research to bedside, is a training which will never leave you and will make your inquiry into patient care ever so detailed.
I've been meaning to say I'm sorry about your Mom and to congratulate her on obviously what is a wonderful son: gracious, super intelligent, and super caring. So today is my chance.
Now if I could send over some homemade chicken soup to warm you up, it would be a real way of saying thank you for all you do for the ladies and men on this board.
With great respect,
Tender -
Hi Matic!
Just wanted to say hi! And say hi to Mum and give her a gentle American hug from me! Stay warm over there...be well. Keep studying...we need you find a cure for us! LOL
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