Is this true? broccoli for ER+ bc?
Comments
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This is a recent news article I read online... I wonder if there is any truth to it... Maybe we don't need to take Tamoxifen or AI's, but just eat lots of broccoli!
Have a great weekend, ya'll!
HARLEY
Combat Cancer with Cruciferous Veggies
Sometimes mother really does know best! When she told you to eat your broccoli, she was looking out for your life span. Broccoli, bok choy, Brussels sprouts, cauliflower, cabbage, and other cruciferous vegetables are potent defenders against cancer. These vegetables contain phytonutrients -- plant-derived chemical compounds -- that help cleanse the body of cancer-causing substances.One of these compounds, indole-3-carbinol, is a potent anti-estrogen that hinders cancerous growths in the estrogen-sensitive cells found in the breasts, colon, and prostate. That's not all. Crucifers are also a great source of beta-carotene, vitamin C, vitamin E, folate, and calcium.
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Hi Harley,
Thanks so much for posting this interesting info. Hope you are feeling well.
I have read many articles about the benefits of cruciferous vegetables. Recently I read that the slightly bitter taste you sometimes notice when eating these veg is the anti-cancer component. (A good reason to learn to love that taste!) I do believe that the more you can eat such veg the better. In winter I make one pot curries and put heaps of them in along with turmeric which is also good for you.
I didn't know about the indole-3-carbinol being an anti-estrogen though - that is really interesting. Must stock up and eat more of these. The great thing is that you can pile your plate high and not worry about the calories!
Hope you are having a great weekend,
gb
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Harley, what you have posted is true!
This is why , on my LAST Femara vacation, I bought a bottle of DIM.
(Google DIM).
It 's a suppliment of crucerferous vegs which "regulates estrogen--encouraging HELPFUL estrogen, diminishing unhelpful estrogen."(Estradiol)
So when my vacation was over, I brought the bottle of DIM to my onc, to see what he had to say.(Could I take it instead of Femara?)He pored over the bottle, said it's good, and he suggests I take it WITH Femara.<sigh>
Which I've been doing.
But now am taking it alone again.
Yes, broccoli is definately good against bc.We're encouraged to eat it often.I, a broccoli-disliker, actually developed a taste for it!
Your currys encorporating brassicas sound great!
Have a wonderful weekend!
joan
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Hi Geebung,
I ate LOTS of broccoli, and even spinach, when I was young, so I wonder how much it REALLY helped me...
How are you doing? I guess it is getting warmer down under, so will you be going to the beach soon? I am SO jealous! I wish it was warm here ALL THE TIME!
I am doing well! I am healing quickly from my reconstruction surgery, and they are actually starting to look like breasts, too.
The boys, Spike & Thor, have started sleeping in the bed with me more, now that it's getting cold at night.
Hugs,
Harley
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Hey Joan,
Congratulations of being done the Femara! Are you going to try another AI in January, or are you finished now? I thought you tried a few different kinds of AI's, but they all have so many SE's, it scares me!I am sitting here, looking at the bottle of Tamoxifen... Afraid to take it, but afraid NOT to take it, either. I am confused as to why I am taking Tamoxifen, since:
a. I am post menopausal due to a condition called premature Ovarian Failure, dx'd at 35.
b. Now that I have had my bi-lateral mast. in May, I don't have any breasts... only the re-constructed ones. I thought that Tamoxifen worked only on the breasts, to reduce estrogen. So WTH?
I know that I am driving my onc crazy, because I told him that I don't want to take AI's because of the se's... the damage to the bones and they increase your cholesterol levels. He just threw the papers on the floor, frustrated, when I told him that I don't want to have hot flashes, because he said that if I don't get hot flashes, it's not working.
Oh, well! I guess I'll take it, a little later tonight...
Harley
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Oh, Harley, I'm sorry your onc threw the papers on the floor.They are so busy, their work is so desperate, they get raw sometims.It's not your fault.You're entitled to falter and hesitate.
Please dont worry.I understand what you're saying about tamox.And yet there IS more to breasts than just the hanging stuff.There is muscle and flesh over and under the sternum, and the ribs,
PLUS tamox is SOOO much easier to take than AI.Try it, Honey.I think it wont bother you.And it WILL protect you.
It's really the best of HT, having been tried and true for so many years.
The AIs--it is still FAR from known what the long-range effect will be, or what the penalty for all this total estrogen deprivation.
Thank you for your cheery good wishes to me.I send mine to you, and encouraging ones!
love, j
Love, j
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Harley, I am so sorry you have this dilemma. My surgeon didn't mention Tamoxifen to me - probably because I am premenopausal? If he had, I know that I would be torn about taking it. Joan's suggestion of giving it a try is probably a good one. You could always reassess the situation if you didn't like it.
Thanks for your thoughts on broccoli too Joan. So estradiol is the bad estrogen...I remember a dietician telling my support group about all that - must go back and read my notes.
Yes, I have always loved vegetables and did so many of the "right" things and here I am with one breast. Oh well, it could have been a lot worse. I am sure a healthy diet still has many benefits.
I am sitting here in a sweat - it's very humid at the moment. It would be lovely at the beach but I don't have a car at the moment.
Love the sound of those dear kitties curled up on your bed. I went to a pet expo last weekend and cuddled a snake (small python) and a Burmese kitten. The snake was beautiful but I really fell in love with the kitten! She was SO affectionate and sweet! I am going away for a few weeks soon though and so the time is not right for a new pet.
Hugs,
gb
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A great thread, and title Harley as we remember the "don't forget to eat your broccoli" urging from our dear Mom's....
In the past I had green tea laced with a broccoli concentrate, from of all places, Johns Hopkins researchers. I haven't bought it lately, but if I see it, I'll post the name.
Joan's right, our doctors seem frustrated with our questions about hormonals in ER/PR+ bc. Probably because studies are indeed showing many patient's quite them due to side effects. Joan, your oncologist sounds so, so reachable. That goes a long way today. Anyways, Harley, since you don't want to take the AI, your doctor suggests Tamoxifen, and well, he's right that clinical studies suggest having those hot flashes suggest better than poorer metabolism of it. And that metabolism is what's needed as Tamoxifen is the mother drug (pro-drug), and it's her metabolites that do the job in protecting us.
As you know, there are tests now to see how you metabolize Tamoxifen. You can read about it on the hormone threads under CYP2D6. I don't really have a bone in these studies, as I take Arimidex, an AI, but if I were to have to switch, for sure I would have my metabolizer status tested. Why take a drug which may not have it's intended preventive benefit, and which, as you point out has SE's? But, that is jmo, or my way or thinking and we are all different.
Joan, I'm going to look back on the alternative threads at your supplement posts. I think you've won me over, and honestly, other than broccoli, green tea, sometimes Co-Q, and Vit D and Calcium, I don't take any. No pretty sounding berry juice, not even Curcumin on my food (cause it doesn't always go with what I eat, and I can't tolerate the tablets due to weak stomach). So, I'll look into DIM.
Yes, it's cold here too. But I just got a hot tub for my kids, and my DH and I joint pain. Now all I have to do is get up the courage to go sit in it (100 degrees F) in the cold. It was my gift to our family.
Hang in there Harley,
Tender -
Geebung,
Ok, I'm confused. "My surgeon didn't mention Tamoxifen to me - probably because I am premenopausal?"
Hmmm, premenopausal women are the one's who benefit from tamox. You have to be postmenapausal to take an AI. Sooo, I'm lost. I know they do things upside down in Australia, but this needs more explaining.
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Joan,
I couldn't bring myself to take the Tamoxifen last night, but I promise I'll take it today. I realize that you are right, I have to at least try it. But, I am confused, since I am post menopausal, will the Tamoxifen even work on me??Maybe I should just eat broccoli!....
Congrats on not having to take the AI's any more...
Hugs
Harley
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Geebung,
I am confused, because if your bc was ER+, you should be taking Tamoxifen, if you are pre menopausal. I am post menopausal, so I should not be taking it. But, I have complained to my onc enough, before even starting it.
Yes, the kitties are SO comforting! And, when it is colder, I LOVE to cuddle up with them! They are SO SOFT, too!Where are you going? Is it a fun trip, or a business trip? I hope you have a safe trip! Hope you can post messages on the board while you are away.
Hugs
Harley
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Tender,
The tea with broccoli sounds interesting! I had cream of broccoli soup the other night, and it was so good! That info from Hopkins sounds interesting! If you find it, please post it. I'd love to read it!My onc wants me to take tamoxifen for a few months and if I am not getting hot flashes, then perhaps we'll have to switch, since he said that will indicate that it's not working properly. He doesn't want to get involved in any expensive tests that my insurance may not cover.
Where do you live, Tender? It is cold... BRRR!! I moved to NC to be where it is warm, but it still gets cold in the winter...
Hugs
Harley
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Harley and Tender, the green tea w/broccoli is calld "Brassica Tea"! My daughter and I were hooked on t.And are now having trouble finding it at Whole Foods.(The broccoli sprouts from "Brassica" at JH is still in the veggie dept....)
Harley, since I was dx, the only person n my family w/bc, my daughters had to have early mammos.
And my elder daughter--they actually found an IDC.
She had lumpectomy, and rads, since there was no nodal involvement.
Then her oncologist said she could do 5 years of tamox, just for the safety involved.
She is in about year 3.
And, Honey, she has never had hot flashes!OR any muscle or joint pain, etc etc.
So hot flashes are NOT an indication of whether a drug is working!
My daughter is in her 40s, but pre-meno, just for the record.
Geebung, G'day! Yes estradiol is the very bad guy.
And yes, eating broccoli does regulate our estrogens favorablyAs does DIM.I have to tell you, (AND TENDER)that some of the brilliant women here, a year or two ago, weighed in against DIM because they say it is like saying saccerin gives mice cancer.(ANYONE would get cancer taking the HUGE amounts of anything!)And DIM does give you a very big amount of brassica.They said how many plates of broccli would have to be eaten..of course I forget.
I cant count on eating broccoli.I wat my estrogens regulated favorably, AND I'm a romantic.I WANT to believe what labels say!
I was tossed out of Sceptics Anon.
I DO respect good brands of suppliments, and my DIM is made by Nature's Way, a very good manufacurere.NOT Joe Blow's DIM.
And my onc indeed OKed it (although not INSTEAD of HT)
Last night I stir-fried some nice broccoli tops.I had left-over Chinese take-outSo guess what I finished and guess what I didnt have room for?
GB, it's my opinion that if your SURGEON said you're "too young"for tamox, it's because you dont need hormone therapy.
Because SURGEONS do NOT prescrive HT!You can tell that because yours has he facts completel backwards!But since you werent sent to an onc, I'm guessing you dont need it.(When I was being wheeled out of recovery, still pretty out of it, my surgeon was there, stuffing my onc's card in my hand, saying call NOW for an appt!)
Still, an onc can tell you the true facts about tamox, and even encourage you.(My daughter asked her onc whether he would suggest his wife took tamox in such a situation.And he thought about it & said "yes.")
Love to everyone, and do eat your broccoli!Brussels sprouts, cabbage, and cauliflower count too!!
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Hello Harley, I took Tamox. for 5 years, and it was very Doable !
could You ask Your Doctor about how good it is for Your Bones??
My dr. told me the Tamox. makes them stronger! Hi Joan
Puppy -
Hi {{{Puppy}}}!
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Joan,
I thought that Tamoxifen worked on BREAST TISSUE, but I don't have breast tissue... I had a bi-lateral mast, so does this mean that it won't work properly for me?I guess I'll just talk to my onc again when I see him in 3 months... trouble is, I don't trust drs... they just give you the party line, and I know that it's not always true.
Harley
P.S. Sorry to hear about your daughter's bc... hope she continues to do well.
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Hi Puppy,
You may be younger than I am... I am post menopausal, and am not sure that Tamoxifen is right for post menopausal women... sigh...
Harley
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Thanks, Dear One.Bc is sheer hell, isnt it?
I would ask your very good question to your onc.He
can answer it.(ESPECIALLY since tamox is now not even made by Astro Zenica.It is only generic!)Which is another nice thing about it--less $, old, established drug.
From what I've been told (and I seem to have said this to you somewhere else.My mind cant be THAT wrecked, can it?
)
women have breast tissue evenafter bilat masts.
The tissue is in lymph nodes in the neck&chest (my onc and his asst poke the hell out of these at every visit), on the ribs & sternum, and behind the sternum.
In SCAR tissue!
NOT trying to be scarey.
But since your onc has suggested tamox, (and you know he's not "in bed" with the drug company, since tamox is now generic)I'd take the ball and run with it.
Best to you, j
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"Harley and Tender, the green tea w/broccoli is calld "Brassica Tea"! My daughter and I were hooked on t.And are now having trouble finding it at Whole Foods.(The broccoli sprouts from "Brassica" at JH is still in the veggie dept....)"
You can buy the Brassica Tea online at http://www.baltcoffee.com/catalog/index.php/cPath/2_17
I love it and hooked on it !!
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{{Harley}}
I had A Mastectomy and then they took all of my Female Buddies away also!!
So now I feel like the Lady in a Movie I once watched!
She said, since I don't have Boobies and I don't have a Female Organ Left
in My body, Am I Still a "WOMAN"?? She said Hell Yes, You just don't have to Buy
Tampons or push up Bra's anymore!!!! It Worked for Me So far, Sweetie!
You have to be the one to make this very hard Choice in Your life!!
I will be 7 years soon, and I had No Chemo. or Rads. My cancer was caught early
and It was NOT Invasive. So my Onc. said No chemicals BUT My surgeon Got So
Angry at Me!! I had to make that choice! Now I am very Happy, had I chose the drug of choice I would have maybe died of Heart Problems! So we never know!
I have had many problems, have NO Idea what caused them, But I DO Know this
I am very Happy I took the Tamox. Because I think IT Saved My Life!
God Bless You Harley, I wish You never had to make a choice, But I will help
You any time You need me! Just YELL!!!
XOXOXOXO Puppy
And I Love My veggies! Always took them, So what the heck??
Hi {{{Joan}}} -
Joan,
Thanks! My surgeon tells me that since I still have breast tissue, I will also still need to get mammos after my reconstruction which I just had on Nov. 7th... So, I guess I will listen to him, since he really is a nice guy, and he really seems to care... unlike any of my other drs.My surgeon says that he can't be sure that he got all my breast tissue... but I think WTH?! He took my breasts off, so I think he did!
Anyway, thanks for the great advice! I started the tamoxifen yesterday, so we'll see what happens!
Harley
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Puppy,
Thanks for your great words of wisdom!
I started the Tamoxifen yesterday, so I guess I'll be taking it today and tomorrow,...
I am so glad that your bc was NOT invasive! Congrats on SEVEN years!!
So sorry that you had so many problems! Did you have any problems with the Tamoxifen? I keep wondering if I should have a hysterectomy, since it is so very hard on our female organs, and I don't want to have to deal with more 'stuff' down the road...
My onc says I should only have to take Tamoxifen for 2 years, and then switch to an AI... hoping more info will be available by then.
Thanks so much for the kind offer of help! I will be calling you soon!
HugsHarley
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Harley, best, best, best of luck! Hopefully you will have 2 wonderfully easy years on tamox.
Harl--your sugeon knows. I've heard of surgeons having to go in and literally have to scrape the ribs bare.You sure do have breast tissue!I'm very happy your surgeon is taking great care of you, and sure, getting you mammos.
May everything be wonderful for you!
Our Sweet Puppy!I've not seen you since (heehee) the panties thread! Been fine? Glad to see your adorably name!XXX, j
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Joan,
Thanks! You are SUCH a sweet lady!So far, so good... day #2!
Harley
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Harley, many more great days in store!
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Thanks, Joan!
HAPPY THANKSGIVING!
HARLEY -
Hi Harley,
I'm 31, pre-menopausal, diagnosed with ILC in Feb this year. Had left mastectomy, chemo, rads (because the tumor was so deep in the breast that they could only get 2mm margin between the pectoral, and my onc said they prefer 5mm).
So, Tamoxifen was the next logical step. And because I was extremely anxious, I looked at all avenues to not take it!
I asked my onc if I could have my ovaries taken out, to not produce estrogen. But she said that ovaries aren't the only place in the body where estrogen comes from. Interestingly, it also comes from fat cells. (Hence, I'm on a low fat diet).
Next I asked her if I could have a right mastectomy, thus not having breasts anymore, so no need for Tamox. But she said that the Tamoxifen will prevent mets as well? (Tender, anyone, is this true?)
I've been on the Tamox for 2 weeks now, and so far so good. No hot-flushes yet, no joint-pain. I am feeling very emotional though, but I think that I might have a little PMS.
Let me know how it's going with the Tamox!
God bless,
Janine
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Janine,
Hi there. I have only been taking Tamoxifen for 2 days... today is day #3!! So far, so good...
Yes, I also looked for reasons not to do some of my treatment, but in my case, it was the chemo. It was MY CHOICE, and it was so hard to decide, because I was in the grey area, where it is not certain that chemo would benefit me. But, in the end, I decided to get the chemo, too, since now I have the peace of mind of knowing that I did all I could to fight this beast!
Yes, my dr. told me that after menopause, we make estrogen in our adrenal glands. You can't take out those, because they are very important.
Glad that you are not having any trouble with tamoxifen yet.
BTW, I am post menopausal, due to a condition called Premature Ovarian Failure, so I am not sure how much Tamoxifen will benefit me... I am still wondering about this, but since the only other choice is an AI, and I am very scared about them, since they are so new, I guess I will just start with tamoxifen for now. My onc wants to switch me after 2 years on Tamoxifen, to an AI...Good Luck to you!
Harley
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I encourage all of you, but especially Harley, to type "tamoxifen" in the search area at the top of this page and read what it says. There is lots of other great information on this topic right here on this website. I think it is important to really understand what it is you are taking and why. For many years tamoxifen was the only antiestrogen treatment for women with breast cancer, regardless of menopausal status. Now the aromatase inhibitors are available and work best for post menopausal women because they help to prevent your body from making estrogen out of your body fat. But they aren't so great at blocking other estrogen. Most of you who are finished treatment and are on one of these medications are taking it as an insurance policy that the cancer won't come back, not as a treatment for existing cancer. But these medications are used that way for some women.
And the deal with the breast tissue and mastectomy and recurrence? It is almost impossible to be certain that every speck of breast tissue is gone with a mastectomy and all it takes is a speck. Recurrences can also happen at the chest wall and along the scars. This information is not to frighten you but to make you aware of what and why you are getting the treatment and advice you are getting from your physicians.
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Ladies, Tamoxifen works by blocking estrogen receptors. If there are any stray ER+ bc cells lurking somewhere in the body (anywhere in the body) tamoxifen will block the ER receptor, so natural estrogen can't hook up to the ER receptor and tell the nasty little bc cell to grow and make more little bc cells. After a while, the bc cells with blocked ER receptors often die. That's why tamoxifen is recommended for premenapausal women with ER/PR+ tumors. (Yes, tamoxifen works on the PR receptors, too.) Tamoxifen protects the whole body, significantly decreaasing the probability of a met showing up a few years down the road, as well as decreasing the probability of a second bc showing up in the other breast.
AI's work by blocking the enzyme (aromatase) in the adrenal glands and fat cells. Aromatase takes cholesterol and changes it into estrogen. So, if a woman is post-menapausal (her ovaries are not producing estrogen, ovaries produce estrogen without aromatase, using a different chemical reaction) the only estrogen being produced is made in the adrenals and fat cells. AIs stop that estrogen from being made. No estrogen to hook into the ER/PR receptor, no signal to the bc cell to make more little bc cells. So, fewer mets or bc in the other breast. The stats on AIs are better than for tamoxifen, possibly due to the CYP2D6 issue. This is why some women opt to shut down or remove their ovaries if they are premenapausal-in order to take an AI. This is what I am thinking about doing, and the reason I have been researching the drugs lately.
Hope this helps.
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