Question about Quercetin-Rosemary, BBS, Tender, anyone?

saluki · November 2007

Okay gals I received a PM about a Complementary cancer protocol using vit C powder and Quercetin--Don't know about the validity---

I had debated over the past few years, adding Quercetin because flavinoids are supposed to be good for us--

Actually it was one of the reasons I considered juicing again--to get the benefit of those white pithy parts of the orange.

But here is what I don't understand, and, why I've been on the sidelines about this---

I am ER+/PR+ . I am on Femara, and Quercetin is a Phytoestrogen; So, wouldn't that be contra-indicated?

I don't object to having tofu occasionally, or flaxseed. Frankly I don't worry about getting

any of that in a normal diet, but taking a supplement is a whole different issue.

Can any of you with a more scientific take on this elaborate the positives or the negatives?

Can anyone expand on this. I'd appreciate your take on it. Thanks!

JoanofArdmore · November 2007

Wow! I've been taking 3 500 mg quercetin/bromalain caps since I was dx!Quercetin does WONDERFUL things to support immune system.Personally, I never THOUGHT of it being estrogenic nor do I in the least care!(But you knew that).

Me--I wish it were MORE estrogenic, because it hasnt done a THING for my estrogen values (or my TMs).Or to take these bloody awful SEs away.

Oh but wait--maybe my estradiol value would be ****8**** w/out quercetin.

Gotta ask, WHERE do you come UP with these things?

I'm having such a bad time on femara (taking my own dose yet) that I will do ANYTHING to support myself physically.Creating Eetrogen?If not to deplete it, WHY am I suffering w/femara?It doesnt need help, buhlieve me!

Personally, I do NOT think I'm cleverer than my onc.Who would CERTAINLY pass out sheets about which suppliments counteract the PRECIOUS PATHWAY of femara if these things were significant!

All through chemo, I got sheets about each chemo, its properties, its possible SEs, when to call .

I feel SO certain there would be sheets w/AI instructions if these things were important in the scheme of things.The only thing my onc ever said was not to take soy ISOFLAVONES(which are rife in protein powders, snack bars, powdered foods, all soy prepared foods..)

We are finding out more and more how ultra.powerful this damn femara is.One friend is presently having SEs of detatchment from femara!!!!She did her time, now it's been 3 months, and her body is stll giving different SEs wildly, because, her onc says, of femara habituation .It is jonesing for femara. Tongue out

Shall I start my "we have NO idea the dangers of taking this strong, strong drug, in a cavellier one-size-fits-all dose for so long"rant?.

At least when I took HRT, which was then found to be maye not so great, I felt MARVELLOUS for taking it!This?I gotta say it sucks.And if I find out it is harmful AFTERWARDS I will be over-the-top furious!

So quercetin?I suppose I'm supposed to be afraid to eat an apple or an onion too?Wait for it!!

I notice you didnt mention my name, because I think, you knew what I'd say.But of course I had to come & say it anyway.

Bulletin:I'm seeing my onc wednesday.I'm seriously planning on telling him I'm quitting Femara.Enough!For this drug-made thousand year old lady.

JoanofArdmore · November 2007

PS:(more about me and my onc, sorry)

After I finished chemo,my onc said "I never thought I could get you to stay the course!"

And chemo was SO much easier, for me, than femara!I'm pretty sure he'll be amazed that he got 3 and 1/2 years out of me on this.

I spoke with my pharmacist in the subjet of femara.He admitted we (the women) are complaining bitterly about the drug and our QOL.I asked him if many of us have refused the drug any further.He said not that he knew of.But..Rite Aide doesnt exactly keep track of who is refilling their femara!AND the others who quit probably dont request a 3 month refill and then refuse it at the pick-up counter."Just gimmee my Flonase")

Trouble with me is I refuse to accept that I cant lead a normal life while on this drug.I keep raging but still staggering along.

Down in the building's garage, in the section of left by other tenants, there is a nice folded wheelchair.AHEM!How often do I lust at it?Only every day.I could see myself unfolding it, getting in, wheeling myself through the basement to my elevator, shopping on my lap.

Why I dont?My thumb joints in my palms are too hurtin to do this wheeling!They can barely hold me to the railings down the 4 steps to the front of building.

Sorry to blather on.(Beats GETTING UP from this chair , and lacing up Nikes for walkeeees.)

TenderIsOurMight · November 2007

Well, I know little about Querctin in general.

So I looked at a couple of sites, including the MSK Complimentary Medicine site:http://www.mskcc.org/mskcc/html/69346.cfm

Here is a full article which you can read: http://www.thorne.com/altmedrev/.fulltext/5/3/196.pdf

Antioxidants and Cancer III:

Quercetin

Davis W. Lamson, MS, ND, and Matthew S. Brignall, ND

Abstract

Quercetin is a flavonoid molecule ubiquitous in nature. A number of its actions make it

a potential anti-cancer agent, including cell cycle regulation, interaction with type II

estrogen binding sites, and tyrosine kinase inhibition. Quercetin appears to be associated

with little toxicity when administered orally or intravenously. Much in vitro and some

preliminary animal and human data indicate quercetin inhibits tumor growth. More

research is needed to elucidate the absorption of oral doses and the magnitude of the

anti-cancer effect.

(Altern Med Rev 2000;5(3):196-208)

One thing I did see is it either helps the bones or causes loss of bones, go figure.

I hope this helps some, Saluki, I'm too chicken to take supplements too.

Tender

saluki · November 2007

Joan--I'm wondering if the reason you haven't had cognitive issues until now is because you are taking the Quercetin, Panax Ginseng and DIM.

Maybe it has slowed your cognitive melt-down?

Personally I think the Oncologists are a little slow catching up with all these new supplements we are trying----till now nutrition has not been a major part of medical training.

Oh yeh --the main ones we all recognize are in the hematologists domain---but these esoteric ones --with new ones coming out each day. Donuts to dollars they are not up to date with their properties.

By the way Joan, I astounded my sister the other day thanks to you!! LOL We were watching

House and Dr. House mentioned Brazil Nuts---I immediately thought of you and told her "They have Selenium poisoning." I was right...... Mind you turned out they were eating them non stop. By the way cannot get them at my WF.

By the way everyone---if you go to your PM's and don't recognize the name -be cautious.----There is someone sending around a website regarding vitamin C and Quercetin. They keep changing names so if you run across it best move is to block them.

Tender-- Till we know more about what Dr Norton was referring to regarding the vitamins I'm paring back to the ones I'm sure of just to be cautious. ---thats why I was asking about the Quercetin.

Right now I've pared back to only Magnesium, Calcium, D3, Co-Q10, Milk thistle,

some Vitamin C, and some B12 becauce I'm on a proton pump inhibitor, Protonix. ---I am considering NAC N-Acetyl-Cysteine because its supposed to

protect the liver from toxicity of certain meds. I dumped the B complex just in case it was questionable.

lesia47 · November 2007

I would like to find supplements for myself. I'm stage IV with mets to bones and lungs. Treatment now is Herceptin (every 3 wks), Zometta (every 4 wks) and Faslodex injections monthly. (I done the weekly Abraxane and Gemzar for 3-4 mos) They may be stopping the Zometta because I'm having lots of problems with my teeth. My last scans showed my lungs stable and slight progression in the bones. My original dx pathology in 4/2000 listed all positives, ER, HR and Neu obviously so did the lung biopsy thus the Herceptin which I've been getting since Oct. 06.

Another problem or situation is someone will induldge me and possibly offer some advise. I had scans in mid May (ct chest and abdomen and a bone scan) Again a ct of chest and head in mid August no bone scan the reason for that one I was having more pain in ribs or lungs. The only reason my Onc agreed to the ct of my head is because I insisted for my own peace of mind. My latest scan was mid Oct. I always ask for copies of my test results and noticed the Oct. scans were compared to May and the August ct was not mentioned why would a radiologist do this?

Any assistance or information would be appreciated. I hope someone can make since out of all this if not please let me know.

I just one of those who believe I need to stay on top of my health, Dr.'s see alot of patients and I want to know all I can about what is going on with me.

Thanks again to anyone with any help!

Lesia

BlindedByScience · November 2007

Hi, Susie

Quercetin has been shown to be a potentially good thing in preventing or inhibiting cancer. Tender's abstract is a tidy little summary.

Polyphenols, ligands & isoflavones can all be phytoestrogens. Some of them are weakly estrogenic and some have antiestrogenic actions. The strongest phytoestrogen seems to be found in clover & alfalfa, but the genistein from soy is the one we're most likely to hear about as being one to avoid. The polyphenols in green & black tea are also phytoestrogens--and these are currently recommended for us.

This is one of those supplements that can come from your diet--as Joan said, apples & onions are loaded with quercetin. Bromelain from pineapple is often combined with a quercetin supplement to help with absorbtion (and some believe it helps to relieve inflammation). Quercetin alone has some anti-inflammatory effects. Maybe an appple/pineapple fruit cocktail is in order instead of a pill.

Below is a link to a very long paper which is a technical presentation on phytoestrogens & their chemistry. It mentions that genistein from soy is considered one of the strongest estrogen mimics of the phytoestrogens, yet quercetin, while considered a phytoestrogen, doesn't seem to have the bc stimulating effect due to some particular aspects of its chemical structure:

http://ethesis.helsinki.fi/julkaisut/laa/kliin/vk/mazur/phytoest.pdf

Genistein (4`,5,7-trihydroxyisoflavone) is the most active principle with the highest binding affinity for the estrogen receptor (Shutt & Cox 1972). .......Results of a recent in vitro study in human breast cancer cells (Zava & Duwe 1997)
revealed that genistein had estrogenic and ER-independent cell growth-inhibitory actions. Over a physiologically relevant concentration range, genistein could serve both as a surrogate estrogen agonist and as a growth regulator.

Miksicek (1995) suggested that an optimal pattern of
hydroxylation seems to be necessary in order for a flavonoid to have estrogenic activity. He reported that those flavonoids with hydroxyl substituents at 4' and 7 positions were invariably
estrogenic and that an additional hydroxyl group at the 5 position (e.g. genistein) increased
estrogenic activity. Having more than four hydroxyl substituents (e.g. flavonol quercetin) or
having a 4'-methoxylated substituent (e.g. hesperetin) appeared to abolish estrogenic activity of
the flavonoid. A similar observation came from a recent site-directed mutagenesis study by Kao et
al. (1998).

****

A diet high in vegetables and very low in meat was shown to be a benefit in hormone-driven prostate cancer survivors. Perhaps this is due to a high intake of flavonoids like quercetin as well as avoidance of the hormones and carcinogens in meat. In any case, quercetin is abundant in plants and it appears that it is helpful rather than harmful for us.

saluki · November 2007

Thanks Tender and BBS--Okay you've reassured me. As long as its shown not to have a stimulating effect on BC I'll at least try to get more in my diet--I'm already eating an apple a day---Wonder how much Quercetin that contains?

BBS--I like your idea about A pineapple-apple drink. I think right now I feel more comfortable going that route.---I used to juice fresh pineapple and apple

and liked it. Don't remember if I added anything else. Guess I really do have to drag the juicer back out. --I saw a small composting unit to keep next to the sink.

I gave up the green tea supplements--but then, I drink enough green tea daily to sink a ship or float away. LOL

Lesia- Maybe Tender will have some insight for you since she seems to be knowledgeable in some of those areas you are asking about. In light of Doctor Norton's statements these supplements and their safety have become quite an issue-- Certainly don't want to take a chance of unintentionally fueling the very cancer we are trying to stop. You may want to add some juicing into your regimen and get some of your nutrients that way. Joan had a juicing

thread a while ago where there was allot of helpful advise.

Take care,

Susie

Rosemary44 · November 2007

Lesia,

Are you taking any supplements now? I wonder what your Dr. would say to taking calcium and D to get your bones stronger and help with your teeth problems? Or eating foods high calcium?

Susie's advice about juicing veggies at least every other day is sound advice. You won't have to concern yourself with getting the right vitamins in cause you'll get quite a variety of them, plus natural enzymes. As time goes by if you stick with it, you'll feel better. It's like you feel charged because your doing something for yourself. It's hard to explain.

That radiation Dr. who didn't read all your previous results needs a phone call. You have to keep them on their toes. Your watching them, and they should know it. We have to advocate for ourselves, or we're lost in the cracks. He was paid to do a job, and you have to make him do it.

Susie,

I'm glad you decided not to add another supplement. After your off the AI, we can take whatever we want. I know you want to give it a boost with some other supplements, but the most important thing we can do for ourselves right now is to lose weight. I don't know if you have any extra on you, but that should be our New Year's goal.

I don't care what it takes, we have to do it. That will do more to get rid of the estrogen machine making process then any supplement we want to take. Quercetin is a heavy duty antioxidant and we shouldn't be taking one over the others. But if you take it in foods with other foods that are high in antioxidants, then your getting a good mix, and off to work they can go. It's like team work, instead of just one super star hogging the ball. Something like that.

Rosemary44 · November 2007

Joan,

Have you given any thought to stopping all of your supplements except for ca, mg and D and C, and see what happens? I don't know what all your taking, but sometimes supplementing can cause the very problems we're trying to get help for. Just a thought. Stay on the AI for awhile longer while you stop the supplements just to see what gives.

JoanofArdmore · November 2007

Thanks, Rosemary. I have actually cut out all the supliments I added to get me through my move last summer.Am down to my ordinary basics--things like C, D. Cal. Mag,(Quercetin)that I've taken forever, way before bc.I eat a lot of healing & beneficial foods-the winter squashes are marvellous for us now & full of leutine & A vitamin.Bitter greens will always be great too.

I recently met a naturopath friend of mine(at WF of course).I asked his take on juicing to heal SEs from AI (not just the crippled thing, but my labs of higher lipids and glucose).^^^^^^^^And he definately feels I will raise my glucose higher by juicing fruit^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ (Susie, please note this before juicing apples and pineapples!!)To me, this is what makes suppliments more acceptable.

Ari likes the powdered formulations, particularly the "green drinks", which, IHO are as effective as juicing.I on other hand, dislike green drinks immensely.I wont even eat quinoa--taste is too green for me.

So this is why I stick to my basic suppliments, and eat plenty of fruit & vegs.

Rosemary, I'm the girl who even begged my surgeon to IV me vitamin C in hospital.(He told me to sneak the caps in.I take 3 500 mg a day)And I was truely afraid after yonks of taking them, I'd get scurvey if I stopped suddenly!

The femara SEs have progressed to gigantic arthritic pains in my fingers, and in my whole thumb joint of my palm.Cant open stuff, cant grip anything w/out bigtime pain.I am a mass of joint pain, and as you know, the SEs (mine anyway) keep getting worse!At this point I cant do stairs w/out hauling myself by bannister. and my hands kill when I do!

My onc, when I saw him in Sept, suggested I try Arimidex.But I'm afraid to trade the devil I know for the devil I dont.One friend also experiences bad edema from femara, but experienced edema in her surgery arm on armidex, as well.Like lymphedema gearing up?This scared the hell out of both of us & we're staying w/femara.ALTHOUGH it is winter now.And I probably woudl rue quitting AI w/out at least TRYING arimidex.What if it was perfect for me?

My onc, at one other point when I was quitting my AI offered me Tamoxifen.What do you think of this?(I didnt want to play with the cervical SEs, but on other hand, pain and suffering are SO much less w/tamox.

Sending hugs and thanking you in advance!

j

Anonymous · November 2007

I still don't understand Dr. Norton's view on "vitamins." Isn't that what he said, "vitamins?" Some people may go crazy with the amount they are taking....more is better. Was Dr. Norton talking to people who had "active" cancers. Of course we never know, do we?

However, I didn't take crap before bc and my tumor seemed to have grown with no help from thes products. I just do not know where the medical community is coming from.

Right now I'm taking glucosamine/chondroitin/, calcium, mag, vitamin D, C, fish oil (Coromega), R-lipoic acid, one capsule tumeric, CoQ10. Everything I take is in low doses...well I do take more vitamin D than is recommended, but who isn't? I know I do not get the amount of vitamins I need daily via food. I don't particulary like veggie juicing. I suspect one has to get used to it.

I was listening to Dr. Rosenfeld this morning talking about aspirin and nsaids. If one takes aspirin for the heart they cannot take nsaids e.g. ibuprofen. Instead he said one could take Naproxen...geez now I forget the spelling. He said nsaids interfere in how the aspirin works and the other (naproxen sp?) doesn't.

It's always, what to do, what to believe?

Shirley

saluki · November 2007

Shirley, I think its a semantic problem--Vitamin Supplements. Never-the-less sounds like a good sensible list that you are taking--nothing questionable there.

I did hear a report this week about one NSAID with which it was alright to do low

dose aspirin but there was only one. I didn't pay much attention since I can't take NSAIDS or COX2 inhibitors.

Joan, I don't think I'll have that kind of problem because my diet is woefully deficient in fruit and glucose levels have never been a problem for me.-----I just

have to keep the carrots to the minimum.

I'm with you about the green drinks--I have several bottles which it makes me ill

just to look at. Couldn't stomach them at all.---Nasty stuff!!! I like fresh wheat grass ginger and apple, but don't have the type of juicer that will do wheat grass.

I get allot of bitter greens and other stuff in the cabbage family with my non stop penchant for asian veggies. And from here on out I turn into a walking sweet potato when its not acorn squash (look--its got either be able to be nuked or plunged into boiling water for a few seconds. If not- its not happening in my kitchen unless it is soup)

JoanofArdmore · November 2007

Suz--glucose levels were never a problem for me either..until fedmara!

Lipids?What's that?My cholesterol was perfect and made that way by my good cho being so high as to make the whole thing PERFECT.Hah!Femara strikes.Two years of it and I have the labwork my mom had at 86.

My cho is turned round-good is down, bad is up.This is why I must take fish oil.

And after femara laid all this FAT on my once-concave belly, not only did my lipids get nasty, but my glucose got into the act.

I was thrilled (with my suppliments) when I visited my doc for bloodwork last week and learned that although my #s still arent good, my "risk factor" is, somehow, normal.

Suppliments.

Because until I worked on it, my risk factor was "high"!

(Suppliments for lipids & glucose: 1 cap Cinnamon Bark 2X a day

One cap Red Yeast Rice.

Sorry.I failed to mention these w/my daily sups!)

saluki · November 2007

Joan- I'd be taking the fish oil as well if it wasn't so hard on my stomach,

but, I do eat allot of sources of omega 3 so I decided not to augment it.

I think my stomach was why I discontinued Curcurmin as well. Between the hiatal hernia and GERD --just need to be careful.

Guess I've been lucky because my cholesterol ratio has been excellent.

Bad time of year diet-wise. I tried to go to radio shack--Saw Santa's chair--And you know what that means---The Hickory Farms gift pagoda---

Don't know how long I can hold out without breaking down for a Summer

Sausage with sweet mustard--or the new goody----BACON CHEESE!!!!!----

Talk about Food Police and the Center for Science in the Public Interest-LOL

By the way, they suggest you make sure the cinnamon is made from a water extract or it may contain Coumarins which can thin the blood. Researchers also say they don't know if Cinnamon interacts with other drugs. They also say that it takes only 1 gram (about a half teaspoon) to lower blood sugar in studies.

JoanofArdmore · November 2007

hmmmm.I THINK 2 caps = about half tsp.

Boy I wish I were you!So easy for me to "stay good".I've not been into a Hickory Farms since my kids were small!

Even before I became "organic". I felt that stuff wasa....not good for the body!

I ate this completely awesome cake from TJs.It was small.I didnt eat it in a sitting, although I couldda.It was DELICIOUS!!And made w/canola oil, not sat fat.It was a light, moist lemon-raspberry cake.Ummmmmmmm!I ate it in 3 days.

But it had NO place in my diet at all.

(you think MORE cinnamon?)

saluki · November 2007

Joan--Fortunately, or unfortunately I don't function well enough to frequent malls so the temptation is being taken out of my hands. LOL Yesterday was an aberration--desparation for

a USB cord for the printer.

Rosemary44 · November 2007

Joan,

It sounds like it's not what your taking but what your not taking. Look up vitamin P5P and hand problems. See if you'd want to give it a try. You start with that and if you feel relief then you switch it to B6 100 mgs, then after time, down that to 50 mgs daily. I have no idea if this will work for you cause you had the problem for a very long time. But it just might.

When you switch drugs does the Dr. tell you to wait till the side effects wane before you start another AI? I don't know how long that would take, but I'd wait it out before I started a new drug. What's a few month's off it when your thinking of not taking it at all?

I'd go with Arimidex since I'm partial to it. I just don't have the side effects others get while on it. For the water retention, if you get it, drink extra green tea, eat melons, and drink more water, and take a B6. I'd like to just go into a steamroom for a week and see if 120 pounder walks out.

Anonymous · November 2007

Is eating the spice cinnamon as good as capsules?

Rosemary44 · November 2007

Shirley,

It's all according to what type of cinnamon is in the pill. If I can find the original story they mentioned the kind. It started with a "c". I'll go look. It's Cinnamomum cassia. Otherwise known as cassia. They say it's normally the type used that we buy off the grocery shelves but of course my grocery store had the other type. Of course, I come to expect that.

Well this report doesn't mention the type of cinnamon, but the one I read said it was cassia:

http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/publications/publications.htm?SEQ_NO_115=150324

Here's one that mentions the kind that was used:

http://www.ediets.com/news/article.cfm/cmi_2376139/code_30171

Anonymous · November 2007

Thanks, Rosemary. I'll have to check my cinnamon. And read the articles. Wink

CarolC · November 2007

Sorry this is a repeat from one I posted on the spam thread but I thought it appropriate here as well. I wrote to Constantine of Breast Cancer Watch asking about quercetin last night. Today I got this reply. Interesting stuff.

Carol:

Glad to be of assistance.

As to the phytoestrogenic bioflavonoid quercetin, I have indeed assessed the data as part of an ongoing systemic review of CAM modalities and breast cancer, and without going into component investigations and critical appraisals of the review process, I'll simply offer here as summary my review conclusions:

"As to the bioflavinoid quercetin, although our review finds that there is some experimental suggestion of potential benefit in breast carcinoma prevention or risk reduction, via the proposed mechanism of inhibition of specific steroidogenic enzymes implicated in the local production of estrogens involved in the carcinogenesis and / or tumorogenesis of estrogen-dependent breast cancers, the evidence is judged methodologically weak, and both (1) highly preliminary in research stage, and (2) restricted to preclinical, largely in vitro, with minimal in vivo, data, and with no human clinical support, and in addition animal studies have provided conflicting and inconsistent data as to whether there is predominantly stimulatory or inhibitory activity against chemically induced tumors or tumor implants / xenografts. Given therefore that there is experimental evidence for both promotional and protective effects on breast cancer, and in addition given that it is currently impossible to reconcile dietary / supplemental exposure with epidemiological and experimental studies, coupled with the absence confirmatory human clinical data, we must conclude that on the weight of the limited evidence, there is insufficient compelling evidentiary foundation to recommend supplementation, at time of last review [09/30/07]."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Constantine Kaniklidis

Breast Cancer Watch

edge@evidencewatch.co

JoanofArdmore · November 2007

Carol, thank you for sharing!How wonderful it is to hear from Edge!Even though, as usual, I had to stumble through his sciencespeak.

Myself, I take quercitin as an antioxident--against viruses or other nasty bugs.I never thought of it as anti-bc.

Thanks so much, again, though!

Rosemary,thank YOU! Yes my onc gives me 2 or 3 weeks off for the SEs from one drug to subside.Mixing it up isnt so great.I appreciate your gentle plug for arimidex..Does the fact that you ignore it mean you would not consider tamox?

Right, I've never heard of p5p. I DO take sublingual b12, and 100 mg of b6 since neuropathy from Taxotere.

I also take a gentle B-complex, since I know it's bad to just suppliment 1 B vitamin.

P5p and hand problems?I'm flying to Google!

T*H*A*N*K*S!!!!

saluki · November 2007

Thankyou Carol,

It is very appropriate that you repost the info in this thread---and I appreciate you asking Constantine. His opinions are always welcome. I'm only sorry that we've lost his input on a daily basis.

Thrilled that he has weighed in on this and its pretty much reaffirmed my hesitation about the actual supplement for the time being. I know he answers individual emails but I can't help but be sad that we lost such a valuable contributor here.

Thanks so much again Carol for having the presence of mind to have Edge weigh in on this.

Now maybe we could get him to weigh in on that whole Dr Norton Controversy about Multi's

fueling Breast Cancer. Want to have a go at that one?

saluki · November 2007

Joan---I was taking the B's that you are talking about because of my RSD and TOS but I stopped

after Dr Norton's comment since he didn't mention just which vitamins were actually fueling the Breast Cancer---just creeped me out that it could be something I'm unknowingly taking---I knew about Thiamine, and Iron-- but what else?

You can bet my Onc is going to get an earful in December!

JoanofArdmore · November 2007

Susie who the HELL IS dr norton?Never mind, he's someone on TV, I guess.

But I reject his teachings!How can he compair w/Dr Weil??Who has been around and learning, teaching and updating CAM forever?

Besides.What the HELL is this stuff about "fueling bc"??That is SUCH a CROCK!!Whomever he is, h is a charlatan!!Scaring bc girls?And I bet he has a book or newsletter or mag to sell.

There IS no bc!!

Look how long it's been!!We're not exactly just off the turnip truck, or out of chemo.Personally I am TESTED every! 3! months!!NOTHING is FUELING any bc around here!

I categorically REFUSE to sit around trembling lest any suppliment "fuel bc"!!!I speet on this!When is it supposed to stop??Ten years after?Twenty?Till death?

No WAAAAAY Jose!I forget HIMMMM, whomever he is!!

If not Dr Weil, if not my onc, then I believe in bco, the reference parts.And I have nevrr, nevr, never read there or in updates from ASCO that ANYTHING "fuels" bc, after tx.Estrogen rich things like soy isoflavones.Drinking too much is estrogen-rich.Vitamins?How small can you get and be true?ONE person says this?NO ONE else knows about it??I'm SOOOO irate!

Or is he blathering about fueling bc as a first hit?Because hell, vitamins will have to get in line behind french fries, being short, and all the other rediculous things .And what makes HIM an expert on bc anyway?Is he an onc?A researcher like Edge?(And of the caliber of Edge)?

How can *I*, mz CAM never hear of him?Even w/out TV?I get the NYT!

Did I say I speet on him?

My onc has never used the expression "fuel bc".And I do not see anyone on Patrice's thread using it either about vitamins, unless there are compounds in wax lips!

Where are all you "crapshoot" people??Nothing we do or dont do fuels bc!Bc is like the wind.Personally it makes me feel good to take suppliments--against bugs, really.I cant think of anything I take "against bc".Oh.DIM.Yeah, it makes Me fel good.I believe in it, I cast my dice.

Anyway, I have...NO interest in norton, or his ramblings!I am 4 + years out of bc."It is gone!" said my rads onc.And if it comse back, it WONT be because I took something norton said "fueled BC".

Pah! Did I say I SPEEET on him?

Sign me..the estrogen-depleted, bad-mood kid

nosurrender · November 2007

Dear estogen depleted bad mood kid!

Before you Speet!

Dr. Larry Norton is the head of Memorial Sloan Kettering!

Be that as it may- I AGREE WITH YOU!

I recently brought up the topic of cam at a meeting I attended with cancerexperts and they looked at me like I suddenly grew a yellow monkey on my shoulder....

...going to find some red M&Ms now......

love,

g

saluki · November 2007

Joan---This is definately not someone they dug off the street---Mention the Name Dr. Larry Norton

to your Oncologist or any Oncologist in the US or Worldwide and they will instantly know who you are talking about.

Otherwise --I would never give this much credence---Mention him to Dr. Weil or Constantine and they will know who he is immediately!

Here is a little about him from BCO

Larry Norton, M.D.

Dr. Larry Norton is Deputy Physician-in-Chief and Director of Breast Cancer Programs at Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center in New York City. Since its inception in 1993, Dr. Norton has served as chairman of the Medical Advisory Board of the Breast Cancer Research Foundation. He is Past President of the American Society of Clinical Oncology, and Chair of the ASCO Foundation. Dr. Norton was a Presidential Appointee to the National Cancer Advisory Board of the NCI (1998-2004). He is the first incumbent of the Norma S. Sarofim Chair in Clinical Oncology at MSKCC and recipient of the American Society of Clinical Oncology's 2004 David A. Karnofsky Memorial Award.

After receiving his M.D. from the College of Physicians and Surgeons, Columbia University, he trained in Internal Medicine at the Albert Einstein College of Medicine. He then served as a Clinical Associate and Investigator at the NCI prior to joining the faculty of the Mount Sinai Medical Center in New York from 1977 to 1988. He is currently Professor of Medicine, Weill Medical College of Cornell University.

Dr. Norton has served on or chaired numerous committees of governmental and professional organizations, including the NCI's Cancer Clinical Investigations Review Committee, its Cooperative Breast Cancer Tissue Resource (Registry) and the Consensus Development Conference on Treatment of Early Stage Breast Cancer (1990). He has also served on several committees of the Institute of Medicine of the National Academy of Sciences. Dr. Norton is on the editorial board of several medical publications, and is an active clinical and laboratory investigator. He is the co-author of the Norton-Simon Model, which has broadly influenced cancer treatment and research for over 25 years.

saluki · November 2007

Joan--With my regimen I've been taking a stack of complimentary meds in the past few years and am currently taking some very experimental stuff---but when someone like Dr. Norton makes such a controversal statement--you at least have to ask yourself why?

Gotta go watch my Helio----why did you have to mention M+M's?

Now I need Chocolate too! LOL

saluki · November 2007

Actually this is what Dr. Norton said at the October BCO ask the expert conference from the transcript.

October 2007: Living with Metastatic Breast Cancer

Question from Lisab:

What are your recommendations as far as taking vitamins during chemo treatment?

Answer:

Larry Norton:

I actually have very strong views on this. The only vitamin supplementation I recommend is Vitamin D. I am advising Vitamin D-3 at 2000 units a day. It may turn out that higher doses are actually preferable, but we do know for sure that 2000 units is safe. Almost everybody in the world who does not live at the equator is Vitamin D deficient. Vitamin D is made by the skin by exposure to the sun, but those of us in the far north or far south and who wear clothes do not have enough skin exposure to make enough Vitamin D. I do not advise excessive sun exposure because of risk of skin aging and skin cancer. Hence Vitamin D supplementation makes sense. 2000 units a day is not a very big dose. If one takes one's shirt off and goes in the sun for half an hour, your body will make 10,000 units. We do not find toxicity from Vitamin D until people take hundreds of thousands of units for prolonged periods. I used to prescribe a multivitamin, but I no longer do so. This is because of evidence that multivitamins may actually have adverse affects on the growth of cancers- prostate cancer as well as breast cancer. You are much better off getting your vitamins from healthy food instead of pills, except for Vitamin D. Eat a good healthy plant-based diet, lots of vegetables, some fruit. Look at the breastcancer.org Nutrition section.

CarolC · November 2007

"This is because of evidence that multivitamins may actually have adverse affects on the growth of cancers- prostate cancer as well as breast cancer"

Yikes..this is really scary to me because I have been a health food/supplement junkie for years. I've always taken very high quality multi (food based) but nevertheless...I've taken plenty of them. In addition I take things like bee pollen, garlic, CLA, cider vinegar, flax seed, calcium, glucosamine, celadrin & msm for arthritis and others that I can't remember without running out to look in my supplement basket. Oh, and I've been taking what I thought was a wonderful product called zyflamend which I learned about a couple of years ago from a support group for men with prostate cancer. My ex-boyfriend had it. It supposedly promotes healthy joint function and normal cell growth. I'm going to have to reevaluate everything now... geesh.

Question about Quercetin-Rosemary, BBS, Tender, anyone?

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Larry Norton, M.D.

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