AC and the leading edge

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jeffntate
jeffntate Member Posts: 49
AC and the leading edge

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  • jeffntate
    jeffntate Member Posts: 49
    edited October 2007

    Hello everyone,

    My wife Karen is now on AC and they started her on a low dose of an ACE inhibitor and will step it up as long as the blood pressure doesn't drop much.  The doc said it will continue until 3 weeks past the last dose of AC.  She said Vanderbilt is about to start a heart study where they do echograms and MRIs of the heart after each treatment but it isn't open.  They told us that normally they only do one baseline MUGA then don't do another either between doses or at the end unless symptoms appear.  Is this really normal?  I thought they would do a MUGA before each dose of AC (doxorubicin or adriamycin with cytoxan).  They also plan to do GC (Gemzar and Carboplatin) after the AC which again is due to our questioning it as a result of reading about it from others on here.  She also her NOT to take vitamins with extra iron and then when I asked for clarification she said "any iron" so today I bought new vitamins with no iron.  I read in a study on mice that iron loading potentiated the carditoxic effects of the doxyrubicin (Red Devil).  I did not expect the IV Push of the doxyrubicin which freaked me out but Karen was fine.  Every experience is something new and not in the books.

    Jeff

  • TenderIsOurMight
    TenderIsOurMight Member Posts: 4,493
    edited March 2008



    Hi Jeff,



    It's pretty traditonal to do a MUGA baseline scan before a cardiotoxic drug like Adriamycin to ensure no heart pathology pre-exists the chemotherapy which may suggest using a lower dose.



    An old rule of thumb which I was told when I was on Adriamycin, is that in normal heart function setting, there is a low risk of heart damage up to a total dose of about 350 mg ( recall it's about 60 mg per meter square so need to factor height in). After that a higher risk ensues. So I had a baseline MUGA, and because I had some shortness of breath and swelling at the end of my treatment, they ordered another. I don't know if newer insight on Adriamycin has changed this sequence.



    A MUGA scan does involve exposure to low level radiation. Looking forward, I didn't worry so much about that, I just wanted to live without undetected problems. Now that I am six years out, I kinda wish I hadn't had so many tests involving radiation. You walk a fine line when undergoing active treatment because you want the best treatment with minimal side effects and yet the drugs are toxic.



    It must have given you a start to see them do an IV push on the Adriamycin. Being bright red, it's scary to see that infused slowly, let alone pushed, but there are differing techniques.



    How is Karen doing? I trust well, and am always so mindful of how truly wonderful a husband you are and informative here on the boards as well.



    All the best to you both,

    Tender

  • jeffntate
    jeffntate Member Posts: 49
    edited October 2007

    This article contains a new way that is per the report is much more accurate than a MUGA in predicting heart damage from Adriamycin.

    http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/563469

    Jeff

  • jeffntate
    jeffntate Member Posts: 49
    edited October 2007

    Sorry most people can't get to this without a Medscape login.  Here it is:

    Serial Natriuretic Peptide Testing Can Predict Anthracycline Cardiotoxicity Risk

    from Heartwire - a professional news service of WebMD
    Steve Stiles

    Information from Industry

    Assess clinically focused product information on Medscape.

    September 27, 2007 (Washington, DC) - Measurement of brain-type natriuretic peptide (BNP) levels in cancer patients receiving anthracyclines can predict the treatment's risk of cardiotoxicity more reliably than troponin levels or echocardiographic assessment of LV function, according to a small prospective study [1].

    For example, a BNP reading >100 pg/mL on two occasions signaled an 18-fold increase in risk of heart failure, arrhythmias, or other cardiovascular complications. The risk was much steeper if levels exceeded >200 pg/mL only once.

    Even though oncologists well know to watch for the cardiotoxic effects of doxorubicin and other anthracyclines, "there's a range of how vigilant they might be," Dr Daniel J Lenihan (MD Anderson Cancer Center, Houston, TX), a cardiologist, told heartwire. "Some might look for them aggressively and others may not. The good thing about this is that it's a point-of-care test, so even in a small oncology practice, they can easily check a blood sample in their office while they're waiting to get the IV in. You can get the results in 15 minutes."

    Serial BNP testing probably isn't enough on its own to indicate withdrawal of the drugs but can help identify patients who should be watched more carefully for cardiac side effects, according to Lenihan, who presented the study here at the Heart Failure Society of America 2007 Scientific Meeting.

    A lot of its 109 patients, under treatment for various malignancies, also had cardiovascular risk factors, which may help promote anthracycline cardiotoxicity, Lenihan and his colleagues speculate. A tenth of the patients had documented CAD, a third had hyperlipidemia, 50% had hypertension, 35% were obese, and 12% had diabetes. Patients with unstable angina, a recent history of MI or acute heart failure, or an LVEF <40% were excluded.

    Biomarkers were normal at baseline in virtually everyone; echocardiography was performed at baseline and at 18 and 24 weeks.

    The patients received up to six courses of chemotherapy, each three weeks apart and preceded and followed by measurements of BNP and troponin I; 71 patients completed all six courses.

    Eleven patients experienced cardiac events over a median of six months; the events included symptomatic heart failure in five, symptomatic arrhythmias in four, and ACS in two patients. All 11 had BNP levels >150 pg/mL on at least one occasion.

    Unadjusted odds ratio (OR) for a cardiac event (95% CI) by BNP and LVEF finding

    Risk factor OR (95% CI) p
    1 BNP test >200 pg/mL 88 (10-761) <0.0001
    2 BNP tests >150 pg/mL 23 (5-97) <0.0001
    2 BNP tests >100 pg/mL 18 (4-88) 0.0005
    LVEF indicative of cardiotoxicity 2.2 (0.1-9) 0.29

    Troponin levels remained normal in all but two patients, both of whom were among those experiencing cardiac events.

    In multivariate analysis, significant predictors of cardiac events included BNP levels >100 pg/mL, >150 pg/mL, and >200 pg/mL (p<0.0001 for each) prior to any such event. History of MI also emerged as a significant predictor (p=0.05), but it's hard to make anything of it, since it was present in only four patients, Lenihan said.

    Most studies in oncology assess cardiotoxicity according to echocardiographic changes in LV function, he said; but a decline in LVEF considered indicative of cardiotoxicity was not a significant predictor of events in this study (p=0.376).

    Whether elevated BNP levels by themselves are enough to justify stopping anthracycline chemotherapy remains an open question, according to Lenihan. They can help, he said, but it would depend on the patient's entire clinical picture. "I think it's a marker of risk. It doesn't necessarily mean you have to stop therapy, but it definitely identifies a group you should be more worried about."

    Lenihan reports being a consultant for St Jude Medical and receiving honoraria from Novartis.

    1. Lenihan DJ, Massey MR, Baysinger KB, et al. Superior detection of cardiotoxicity during chemotherapy using biomarkers. J Cardiac Failure 2007; 13(Supple 2):S151. Heart Failure Society of America 2006 Scientific Meeting; September 17, 2007; Washington, DC. Abstract 265.

    The complete contents of Heartwire, a professional news service of WebMD, can be found at http://www.theheart.org/, a Web site for cardiovascular healthcare professionals.

  • jeffntate
    jeffntate Member Posts: 49
    edited October 2007

    Here is the opinion of a professor of cardiology on this:

    I was at the meeting where Dan Lenihan presented this.  As he points out in the story, there isn't enough data out there to say whether you should change your plan based upon a BNP.  If you find one that's high, are you going to alter her therapeutic plan?  At this point, the biggest change a rise in BNP might trigger is reaching for ACEI or Beta blocker.  

    The indication for ACEI or beta-blocker are small clinical studies, but if I were to undergo anthracycline Rx I would put myself on one.  My bias would be to take a beta blocker. 

  • ravdeb
    ravdeb Member Posts: 3,116
    edited October 2007

    interesting..thanks for the article.

  • jeffntate
    jeffntate Member Posts: 49
    edited October 2007

    Update:

    The medical oncologist has agreed to check the BNPs as well as give my wife the ACE inhibitors, so we should have the risk of Adriamycin heart damage well monitored and hopefully prevented altogether.  Hopefully soon this will become standard practice and the 1-2% risk of coronary heart failure from the anthracyclines (Adriamycin included) will be of historic interest only.

    Jeff

  • SueH
    SueH Member Posts: 1
    edited October 2007

    Hello All,

    I'm a 6 year survivor, (ER- PR-, not HER2 tested, stage II)

    What about use of CoEnzyme Q 10 for heart protection?

    We hear so much about Rx drugs but little about supplements that also have strong evidence of heart protection.

    I'd like to see some more support for a range of interventions.

    I had AC and have a family history of heart disease and I have high BP.  I do take Co Enzyme Q10 now, as well as other good supplements to support my overall health.

    Keep well!

    Sue

  • FloridaLady
    FloridaLady Member Posts: 2,155
    edited October 2007

    SueH,

    I too take CoQ10 and have heard great things about this supplememt.  From my Natural doc and reading.

    Fla

  • jeffntate
    jeffntate Member Posts: 49
    edited November 2007

    Well they did the BNP tests and my wife's score was well below the threshold for concern of heart damage.  Perhaps the anticipatory ACE inhibitor mitigated some of this risk or she has an Angel on her side.  It's a relief and a blessing to know with these BNP results that we no longer need be concerned with cardiotoxicity and can return our focus to killing the cancer and preventing recurrence!

  • jeffntate
    jeffntate Member Posts: 49
    edited November 2007

    And the BNP is just another vial of blood and you get the results in 10 minutes before your dose of AC!  It's 100 times more precise than a MUGA, it's cheap, and real time.  Duh!

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