Nike suspends Vick.... Rebock drops his jersey

Felicia and all,
I was not trying to make this a race issue. However, what I said is true. And as far as him serving his time and going back to "earn a living" at playing football - you must realize that actors, sports figures, etc. are role models for our kids. Do you honestly think Vick would be a good role model for your kids? I get pretty sick and tired of the attitude that "it's just a dog", or a cow or a pig or whatever. All the good things that man could have done for the black community and he chose to torture and abuse and train dogs to kill or be killed. Your argument that his crime was not as great as other violence against humans is just plain wrong. Animals deserve the same rights as humans, not to be tortured, electrocuted, raped or inhumanely killed. And if you are a dog lover, you certainly have to agree with that. And by the way, Felicia, O J Simpson was found not guilty, and yet he is still vilified. I don't care if Vick is white, black, purple or pink; the man admitted he did these acts. He deserves to be banned forever.
Topo

Ummm - my child's role model is not a football "star" - but that's just me. Any kid who goes out and starts a dog fighting ring just because their "hero" Michael Vick did has some issues waaaay deeper than the amount of television he/she is allowed to watch, I'm betting...

And I'm sorry, but people DO come first. I love my pets - I truly do - but if I had to take my kid for his back-to-school physical and my cat to the vet for her annual checkup but only had the money for one, I'll be shaking the pediatricians hand first; my fur child, Vestly, would have to wait a week or two...

Just for the record, every Black person that gains fame and/or fortune is no more obligated to "do for the Black community" than anyone else. The whole mentality that because Vick is Black he should have tried harder to pull us all "out" (from wherever it is you think we all come from) is probably one of the most unbelivable things I've ever "heard" on this board. So totally far off the topic that it totally pisses me off...

And I'm TOTALLY done with this thread, I think...

Felicia,
I apologize for upsetting you so. It was never my intention. You are entitled to your opinions just as I am. I am not black, but I am gay. Maybe it's not the same, but certainly gays are discriminated against. Don't leave this post. Again, I apologize.
Topo

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Felicia and all,
I was not trying to make this a race issue. However, what I said is true. And as far as him serving his time and going back to "earn a living" at playing football - you must realize that actors, sports figures, etc. are role models for our kids. Do you honestly think Vick would be a good role model for your kids? I get pretty sick and tired of the attitude that "it's just a dog", or a cow or a pig or whatever. All the good things that man could have done for the black community and he chose to torture and abuse and train dogs to kill or be killed. Your argument that his crime was not as great as other violence against humans is just plain wrong. Animals deserve the same rights as humans, not to be tortured, electrocuted, raped or inhumanely killed. And if you are a dog lover, you certainly have to agree with that. And by the way, Felicia, O J Simpson was found not guilty, and yet he is still vilified. I don't care if Vick is white, black, purple or pink; the man admitted he did these acts. He deserves to be banned forever.
Topo

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I agree with everything you've said. Kids choose their own role models, whether we like them or not. Entertainers and athletes are overpaid substantially compared to people in jobs that actually help society like teachers, day care workers, fire fighters,etc. While they don't have a rule of thumb obligation, they ones I respect are those who do give back. For $12 million dollars a year, he should have chosen to be a better role model and he could have if that was a priority in his life.
In Philadelphia there is a lot of crime amoung young black men. They're murdering each other in numbers we haven't seen in a decade. Bill Cosby has been back to the projects where he grew up several times this year motivating and trying to help-- not because of obligation, but because it's the right thing to do.

To: Toppo

I saw your comments re gays

O/T Come on up here to our part of the world
there is a giant parade (I have never attended)
and am not gay, but.. have resided in San Fran
and Bermuda (also, whre many gays lived) it was
a great experience! many moons ago

I note you are fairly new
and wish you well on your path

Feel free to PM me if I can help
though I have never had a port
several of my pals have ..


I am on and off forum
but my mission is to support sisters

Best to you

Hugs

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If nothing else I say here gets through, please remember that not all Black people live in the freaking projects - even in Philadelphia .

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Whoever said that they thought all black people lived in the projects? No one I know said it or thinks it? Why would you think that some of us think so?

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(Bill Cosby is seen by many as an old man who is out of touch with the way today's youth live, work and play. So what, Cosby goes "back to the projects" - what the heck does that do for the feelings of despondency, the despair, the unemployment rate, the poverty or the crime rate in the city of brotherly love? He is ONE man with ONE opinion on how things should be done. He is not the voice of Black America. Neither is Sharpton, Farrakhan, Jackson or anyone else who has propped themselves in front of a mike. If there was such a thing, perhaps New Orleans' lower ninth ward wouldn't still be in ruins...

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When Bill Cosby comes to help, he shows people that he cares and while that might not mean anything to you, it does many of the folks here. He can't change everything, but he can provide hope and inspiration, which is sorely lacking for many of the people in Philly.

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Remember that Nike commercial a few years ago with Charles Barkley who began by saying "I am not a role model"? The point? If you allow professional sports figure or a rock star or an actor to be the only somebodies your kids look up to, then what do you do when the game is over, the CD is turned off or the movie credits roll? Parents should have a much bigger responsibility to their offspring than that. Damn if Barkley (or whomever wrote that commercial) didn't hit the nail square on the head with that one.

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Like it or not, kids will choose their own role models. Sure parents have influence, but they can't control what their kids think. Like Shirley's husband, I admire Tiger Woods, Lance Armstrong, Peyton Manning, Annika Sorensten (sp?), Rosie O'Donnell, Sean Penn, Michael Moore etc. not just because of their talents, but because of what they do for others with their gifts. I followed Vick's career since he did so well in college football during his freshman year.
Of course parents have a big responsibility in their children's values, but not all kids have parents who are skilled or capable in that area-- whether white, black or purple.

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Now, back to my original position: The reality is that Vick is a professional football player the same as I am a professional writer. If I were to somehow be unable to earn a living as a writer (be it by my own doing or otherwise), there isn't much else I'd be able to do - WELL. I could waitress or write grants, but what I'm really trained to do is write for newspapers and magazines and teach other people how to do the same. Again, I'm not suggesting Vick be slapped on the wrists and all be forgiven, but I don't think bannishing him from the NFL forever is the best course of action.

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As I said before, there are football leagues other than the NFL in Canada and Europe. If he was banned for life as I believe he should be, he would still be allowed to try out for those leagues if anyone would have him. Working in the NFL is a privelege, not a right. I have a family member who can't work as a Dr. any more because he did something that wasn't at all related to his profession. That was a consequence of his actions. He could work as a doctor in another country, if he chose to. Why hold Vick to a lesser standard than many professionals in other fields. Not all consequences rectify situations. No matter how a murderer is punished, it doesn't bring back the victim whether human or animal.

Geez, I would state my opinion, but if there's anything I have learned in almost 60 years it's that no one cares about my opinion.

Tina

Don't send him to Canada - we definitely DO NOT want that excuse for a person here!!!

Mandy

Hurting animals shows a lack of ability to be empathic, one of the key diagnostic criteria for an anti-social pesonality disorder diagnosis (once known as sociopath or psychopath). This is one of the biggest warning signs in children who hurt animals, because of the inability to show empathy for something or someone unable to protect and take care of itself. While no one says that EVERY person who does this definitively has the disorder, it's surely not a good sign. The means in which Vick admitted to killing these animals is absolutely brutal and it's hard for me to see how someone like him could be "normal" or "typical" in other areas of relationships and do something like this. All the other psycholgoists I know concur and I haven't heard anyone in the mental health community say otherwise.

Ditto, Shirley.
Thank you Amy.
Although I knew this, it is good to have it said here by a shrink.
And, especially with all the horrible violence shown on TV & in movies, for a sports figure to agree with and carry out such cruelty to animals is horrible, and wrong.
Even BUSH doesnt kill animals.(Sorry, I couldnt help it.)

Years ago I bought a fluorescent vest at a thrift shop.I loved wearing it, especially on night walks.We lived somewhere else then, and I was appalled when a neighbor boy said "Nice vest.Do you hunt?"Not a bad question, but just the thought of me w/a rifle shooting wild things made me sad.
Later the same boy told me his father & mother shoot squirrels who come into their yard, with air rifles.
It upset me.Just thinking what kind of influence they were having on their kids.
And I found a house here and we moved away.

That was years ago.
Now--there is no moving away from all the horrible things going on, Vick's proclivities being the worst.

And speaking of racial issue (which we werent)
here is something I got in email today:

Vick, Hypocrisy and the New Racist NAACP Organization
By Gary Yourofsky
Civil rights icon Dick Gregory explained, “Under the leadership of Dr. King, I became...convinced that non-violence meant opposition to killing in any form. I felt the commandment "Thou shalt not kill" applied to human beings not only in their dealings with each other...but in their practice of killing animals for food and sport.”

Ironically, Michael Vick, his Bad Newz partners in crime and his fans—which now include the Atlanta chapter of the NAACP—are at polar opposites with Gregory because supporting, defending and engaging in animal cruelty continues to be America’s favorite pastime. Rationalizing the cruelty and forgetting about victims are the other hobbies we love most.

In the last six years, hundreds of dogs at Vick’s Virginia home were trained to be violent and forced to attack each other while cheering spectators wagered thousands of dollars on which dog would rip the other dog to pieces. Vick’s lust for violence continued long after the winning dogs’ jaws were pried off of the losing dogs’ throats. When the Bad Newz dogs didn’t win, Vick ordered his underlings to kill them by slamming them to the ground, hanging, electrocution or drowning. Those actions were premeditated. So any talk about Vick making a “mistake” is incorrect. Throwing a pass into double coverage is a mistake. Shoving the heads of dogs into 5-gallon buckets of water until they die is evil. This fact didn’t seem to sway RL White, who heads the NAACP’s Atlanta chapter. He recently asked the NFL not to "permanently ban Mr. Vick from his ability to bring hours of enjoyment to fans all over this country." Why the NAACP would support the abuser and the oppressor instead of the abused and the oppressed is troubling. Unless it’s self-defense or defense of another, people who murder animals or humans—along with child molesters and rapists—don’t deserve equal rights, future career guarantees or the Atlanta NAACP’s unwavering support.

The issue of race should be moot as well because King stated, “I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.” Therefore, when black athletes, journalists and the Atltanta NAACP support Vick because of his skin color, it’s just as immoral as any white person condemning him because of it.

White’s other asinine comment about Vick receiving “more negative press than if he had killed a human being" can be impugned with two letters: OJ! Simpson received daily coverage for nine months and is still mentioned daily on many American radio stations even though he was acquitted of all charges. Will the Atlanta NAACP issue a press release urging Hollywood to allow Simpson to act again, or ask Fox NFL Sunday to put him next to Terry Bradshaw? And speaking of more negative press than if he had killed a human being, how much acrimony did the NAACP hurl at Don Imus after he made an idiotic comment about the Rutgers basketball team? Imus has received way more negative press than Vick, even though his crime only caused hurt feelings.

Since the NAACP went out of its way to defend Vick, I am forced to ask: How much money did Vick donate in order to get the NAACP’s outspoken support? This once-formidable civil rights group—which is now a corporation—hasn’t been interested in substantive social change for at least 25 years! Sharpton, Jackson and Farrakhan have been doing all trench-work since the early 80s. For the record, PETA and HSUS have taken the corporate route as well, and have exploited this case for millions of dollars in possible donations. By supporting Vick, the NAACP won’t lose its share of donations from many black Americans who refuse to look past skin color to see what a psychopath Vick truly is.

And spare me the invalid comments about humans being more valuable than animals. That discriminatory belief (speciesism) is also the foundation of racism, sexism and heterosexism. Slavery, oppression and mass murder only occur when one group believes they’re more important than another.

Furthermore, if people are outraged because Vick oversaw the torture and murder of dozens of dogs in the blood-sport of dog-fighting, why aren’t people outraged about America’s annual torture and murder of 10 billion land animals for the blood-tradition of meat-eating? It is hypocritical to condemn one form of cruelty to animals and not another, especially when both happen because of tradition, habit, convenience and profit. If you think the dogs that Vick killed suffered greatly, you should see what farm animals endure before their flesh winds up on a grill at Outback. You can view a clip on my www.adaptt.org website.

A lifetime ban from the NFL and the maximum amount of jail time should be Vick’s punishment. Sadly, that won’t even make him understand the wickedness of his ways. He should be forced to live and die like a pit bull in a dog-fighting ring. He should be placed in a cage with RL White, and be forced to fight to the death. Then maybe he, White and many others will finally understand what oppression, discrimination, slavery and violence are all about.



I agree with this!And even though I'm not a vegetarian, this is a reason why I only buy my meat at Whole Foods, a store which is committed to food animals living humane lives.

I have to share,
I worked with a professional football team here in NY.
And Amy, the way you described how MV treated his dogs is the way they treat the players. They train them to kill the other team. I can't tell you how many abused wives are the victims of professional football players.
I agree whole heartedly with everything you all say about how he should be punished for what he did to those dogs--I couldn't even watch the clips they showed on the news, I literally had to cover my eyes.
I am just saying there is a mentality in that particular field that is ripe for this kind of behaviour.
It is wrong and it is SICK.
And what is worse, he will get away with it because he is a good player and the bottom line is $$$. All morality goes out the window when a star can perform on the field.

Joan - FABULOUS post!!!!
Mandy

yea, joan, i don't agree entirely with one thing
nosurrender said though, cops, military, even security (me) are trained to kill if necessary, but i want to put the blame on MICHAEL VICK.. no passing the buck to his training.. maybe his home training, that allowed him to have dog fights in his garage when he was younger and before football..so his father says.never developing empathy, because of what he was allowed to do as a kid,. never be corrected for it, ..lack of good parenting,running with others with like mentality in the hood. etc. his parents covered up for him, and so did the NFL..and he believed he was untouchable because of his status, in the hood and in the NLF.
when i worked in the youth authority in cali., the director of the program said," somebody, somewhere, screwed up with these kids". i think vick's violent behavior started a long, long time ago.
we have to ask ourselves, why their are so many people in the military, cops, and pro football, that don't abuse their wives, other people or animals. something inherently wrong in his character and those like him. training is these fields, just exacerbates these character traits/flaws, but the groundwork was extablished in childhood. i believe his violent actions would continue to excalate, if he wouldn't have been caught..
excluding of course, those who were born with some kind of psysical or mental disorder. i think robert resler, the best criminal profiler, still hasn't figured out jeffery dalmer, he is an anomaly.