Calcium and vitmin D---Please give me a break!

saluki · May 2007

I cant take any more of this conflicting information.
You'd think after 5 years I'd just be used to it.
Take it --Don't take it--Everything in moderation--
who knows for sure anymore.

Yahoo! News

High calcium and vitamin D intake may have a down side

By Megan Rauscher 21 minutes ago

In one of the first studies to examine the relationship between diet and brain lesions, researchers observed that elderly people who reported higher calcium and vitamin D intake were much more likely to have greater volumes of brain lesions -- regions of damage that can increase risk of cognitive impairment.

"Our finding of a relationship between brain lesions and consumption of both calcium and vitamin D raises the question about a possible down side to high intakes of these nutrients," Dr. Martha E. Payne of Duke University, Durham, North Carolina, told Reuters Health.

Higher intakes of calcium and vitamin D have been promoted in recent years as a way to prevent bone loss with aging. "We are concerned that some of this extra calcium may end up in the blood vessel walls rather than the bone. This may be a particular problem for individuals with renal disease since calcium excretion may be impaired," Payne said.

The research team assessed calcium and vitamin D intakes and magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) brain scans in 232 elderly men and women.

All of the subjects displayed some brain lesions of varying sizes but those reporting the highest intakes of calcium and vitamin D were significantly more likely to have higher total volume of brain lesions as measured across several MRI scans.

These positive associations remained significant in two separate "multivariable models" controlling for age, high blood pressure, diabetes, heart disease, and depression. In one model containing both calcium and vitamin D, only vitamin D remained significantly positively associated with brain lesion volume.

"We cannot conclude that calcium or vitamin D caused the brain lesions that we found," Payne said. "However, we hypothesize that our findings may be due to vascular calcification, whereby calcium is taken up into the blood vessel walls."

"A longitudinal study," Payne concludes, "is urgently needed in order to determine if calcium and vitamin D lead to vascular calcification and brain lesions in the long term."

She reported the study findings at a meeting of the American Society for Nutrition, part of Experimental Biology 2007 in Washington, DC.

Copyright © 2007 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved. Republication or redistribution of Reuters content is expressly prohibited without the prior written consent of Reuters. Reuters shall not be liable for any errors or delays in the content, or for any actions taken in reliance thereon.

Anonymous · May 2007

DAMN, DAMN, DAMN! What are we suppose to believe AND do. I go to Duke. I suppose I need to speak with my onc about thier findings and see what she says.

I wonder since we are on AIs if our bones would eat up the calcium and bypass the blood vessel walls. Damn!
Shirley

JoanofArdmore · May 2007

"I wonder since we are on AIs if our bones would eat up the calcium and bypass the blood vessel walls. Damn!"
I'd think so, Shirley.Especially the so-ezasily assimilated calcium we take.
I notice there were no markers for types of calcium taken.OR bone density o the subjects.
I truely believe people with lessor bone density UTILIZE the calcium(and the vitamin D.)
I HAVE to believe this, because I refuse to do less for my bone density.To me, falling & breaking bone would bd the end of my life as I know it.
DAMN!!!!
Who makes these fiendish reports UP?

PS Meant to say excess calcium, especially in badly assimilated forms, like oyster shell, is cause of many bad things.Like kidney stones.

saluki · May 2007

But Joan
According to this they did the study on the elderly---wouldn't they have lesser bone density?
And as to who made up the fiendish report I wouldn't think of Duke as the poster child for Quackwatch. LOL

Maybe Shirley can find out something, but I did read something about this before but when I looked to find it again, I was completely stumped as to where I had seen it.

All I remember is I ran across the brain lesion stuff when I was looking for something about fosamax. I was never able to find it again.

Anonymous · May 2007

Susie, you like bringing us the news, right? Like the stuff on our contaminated pet foods and now our foods? LOL
Just kidding of course. In fact, thanks for all the "news" you bring to us.

Okay, about the calcium. I'm going to copy what you printed and try to remember to take it to the onc with me. I think the calcium has already messed up my brain. Or was it the chemo? I need to make a little folder of stuff I want to ask the onc so I know where I put it. I think I will be able to remember.
Shirley

BlindedByScience · May 2007

I haven't looked up any published papers on the vit D/brain lesion stuff, but I would ask if the calcium & vit D were from supplements or supplements & food (maybe milk causes brain lesions ).

Remember, too, as we get older, we have a harder time assimilating vitamins, nutrients and the cofactors needed to run all the biochemistry. Maybe something significant is missing in their diet or there are age-related changes that prevents them from using the calcium & vitamin D properly. Were these people generally healthy and was their whole diet assessed? For example, eating salads and fermented foods (yogurt & sauerkraut as opposed to beer) would be a marker for a well-rounded diet. Are they getting enough magnesium if they're supplementing? Vitamin K? Melatonin (or sleeping well)? do they get any significant sunshine since this helps use calcium?

I'm thinking there may be a reason they see the lesions in older adults rather than younger ones.

Anonymous · May 2007

Oh, I forgot. When are we "elderly?" I'll be 61 this month. Am I elderly? Or just a "senior?"

JoanofArdmore · May 2007

"But Joan
According to this they did the study on the elderly---wouldn't they have lesser bone density?
And as to who made up the fiendish report I wouldn't think of Duke as the poster child for Quackwatch. LOL"
DEFINATELY NOT, Susie.
But...for example, we know many old people are deficient in stomach acid.This could stop them from assimilating minerals adequetly.
Conversely , no young people exibit these lesions-maybe because they take decades to build up?
I just feel some info is lacking from these studies.
(And, as I ssid, I HAVE to contest these studies, because I CANT stop taking calc & D.No way a person, an OLD person who lives alone, cn fall.)

Shirley, does your onc know the answers?My onc is Johns Hopkins.But all he basically knows and cares about is saving us from cancer.Not hearts, not bones, not brains.Not QOL.I guess I need a post tx onc, but they dont HAVE these.Yet.Things are looking up, these days, in survivorland!

denisa · May 2007

i think we should all take up smoking cigarettes again, eat a pound of bacon with our eggs and coffee every morning, lie out on the sunny beach wallowing in our own fat while drinking our margheritas and eating corn chips and dip, and end the day with a pack of twinkies or a box of fudge. they are going to someday find this was good for you and won't matter......

denisa

Rosemary44 · May 2007

Keep in mind that we might be taking too much calcium and not considering the foods we eat each day that could be taking us over the limit. I take about 1000 - 1200 in pill form and don't even think about the food.

I know that we shouldn't be going over 2500 a day. That is said to be dangerous. If they do more research they could probably come in with another number that we shouldn't exceed. Of course the article didn't mention the ages of the people tested, nor how much calcium they were taking, nor were they taking magnesium which is suppose to keep the calcium from calcifying on our organs and other places. There's a lot left out in that report.

Rosemary44 · May 2007

They might have already found out something about drinking that coffee and having those smokes. It seems that those who do don't get alzheimers as much.

Wallowing in our own fat lying on a beach, I might be able to find something good about that out there also.

Anonymous · May 2007

We need to remember that this is just one, limited study and there can be many factors not controlled for among the sample. If the basic theory that vascular calcification occurs as a direct result of too much calcium in the system, we'll need to know what pathological factors cause the body to retain calcium. It seems to me that alot more research needs to be done on this question. In the meantime, moderation, as we know, is the best course of action. At the very worst, I guess we can look forward to being strong, cancer-free mental defectives !

Dr. Martha Payne, BTW, is a PhD in the Biological Psychiatry Dept. here at Duke. She isn't an MD though, perhaps, that doesn't maen anything in terms of her scholarship or credibility.

Marin

ADK · May 2007

Quote:

i think we should all take up smoking cigarettes again, eat a pound of bacon with our eggs and coffee every morning, lie out on the sunny beach wallowing in our own fat while drinking our margheritas and eating corn chips and dip, and end the day with a pack of twinkies or a box of fudge. they are going to someday find this was good for you and won't matter......

AMEN!!!!

saluki · May 2007

Well, I'm not lowering my vitamin D3. I don't know what to make of the calcium, since we've had other threads that talked about us not taking into account all the Calcium we were getting in our foods.

Talk about Colander Brain; I know there was an article
put up on here about this but I don't know who the author was.
Based on that recomendation though Dr Weil lowered his recomendation of calcium I remember but to what I don't.
But I don't think it had anything to do with this issue.
Just another voice for moderation.
=========================================================
This Forum goes into cyberspace after the second page and the research news forum after the first page.

Hear that Melissa and Tami-----Moderators. --Archives please!!!
=========================================================
My inclination is to agree with BBS and Rosemary that this is being affected by magnesium intake or lack of among other variables.

Susie

Blundin2005 · May 2007

Shirrrrrleyyyyyy! Really! BBS presented viable information about the variables and you want to discuss semantics of "senior" and "older"?!

Consider that before modern medicine 50 was as far as we made it through life. So, I think that anything beyond that is tweeking the mechanics of the "design". So, and therefore, it doesn't matter which term you choose to use .... the analysis remains the same .... but you knew that didn't you? silly isn't it how we want to deny our aging?! All in good spirit of course ....

mkl48 · May 2007

I thougth I was taking the D3 for BC recurrance prevention. That is a far more imediate worry. It is interesting that the sources of calcium and 3 usually help lower BP which is known to increase vascular events.Beth

Rosemary44 · May 2007

Susie,

This might be what you've read. All I have is the quote:

"For maintaining calcium metabolism, intake of calcium levels above 800 milligrams daily is probably unnecessary provided that vitamin D status is adequate, according to a report in the Journal of the American Medical Association.

Our study suggests that vitamin D sufficiency may be more important than high calcium intake in maintaining desired values of serum PTH," the authors conclude. "Vitamin D may have a calcium-sparing effect and as long as vitamin D status is ensured, calcium intake levels of more than 800 mg/d may be unnecessary for maintaining calcium metabolism."

saluki · May 2007

Beth--Please tell my blood pressure that. Its been steadily climbing since I was put on femara, not to mention the effexor.

Shirley --I can't help myself. I was a child of the sixty's
and a fan of Kurt Vonnegut.
Absurd humor gets me through the day.

O/T but since you mentioned food and pets I couldn't resist from itchmo

http://cartoonbox.slate.com/hottopic/?image=0&topicid=157

Yes- Rosemary I think that was it.

Anonymous · May 2007

Quote:

Shirley, does your onc know the answers?My onc is Johns Hopkins.But all he basically knows and cares about is saving us from cancer.Not hearts, not bones, not brains.Not QOL.I guess I need a post tx onc, but they dont HAVE these.Yet.Things are looking up, these days, in survivorland!

Joan, I have no idea if she'll know anything. After my "little onc" left me for another state (and woman) I have a "new" onc. I have seen her once since she became my onc. I've only seen the NP twice since then. However, when I go I will throw this question out to them IF I DON'T FORGET! My onc is really into HT and QOL issues. I believe she's "into" older women LIKE ME. So, Joan, I really don't know what that means since I never see her.
I'll be seeing somebody this month. LOL
Shirley

Anonymous · May 2007

Quote:

silly isn't it how we want to deny our aging?! All in good spirit of course ....

After running errands (too many) today I can no longer deny that I am OLD whether it be a senior or elderly. I am so freakin stiff, my heal hurts, my buttocks from my degenerative disc hurts, my shoulders hurt, I'm stiff and walk worse than a penquin....whine, whine, whine. Hmmm...perhaps W-I-N-E would be better except after about a half a glass I'd fall on my face. Oh, and I didn't mention I'M SO TIRED. What am I doing on this computer?
Shirley

Anonymous · May 2007

Susie, that cartoon says it all.

I took my Mitzi to the ophthalmologist, and he told me what kind of food he feeds his cat. He said it was pricey and told me the name of it, but I forgot. It began with an "N." It has more protein. He said if an elderly (whatever age that may be) cat ate too much of it it could cause kidney problems. But it can be mixed. It's a dry food and my cats prefer dry foods. I'm going to try to do a search and see if I come up with the name of the food. Also, he said it wouldn't be found in the big pet store change eg Pet Smart. Maybe a smaller store. Or, I'm sure, online.
Shirley

saluki · May 2007

Shirley-- when I was trying to find food for my crew one of the ones I had highlighted to try was Nature's Variety. It was one of the highest rated foods by pet food analysis.
Here is the site

http://www.naturesvariety.com/

There another one called natures logic thats supposed to be good but Nature's variety sounds like what you are describing because it is high in protein.

http://www.natureslogic.com/products/cp.html

------------------
Susie

Anonymous · May 2007

I will look into it. Thanks.
Shirley
Leaving tomorrow for the weekend so I'll have to look when I get back.

biondi · May 2007

hey, remember when the guys had a bad time lifting their little willie up, well they sure found the solution in a quick hurry, viola, viagra! why can't they do the same for some of our b/c issues.can anyone of the rocket scientists come up with the proper dose/ for calcium/vit d? and how to insure proper absorption?

Rosemary44 · May 2007

Well if this story is the new look into calcium, it might be prudent to back down some from taking a high dose. The last thing we want is more plaque in our blood vessels. We can do that fine on our own without taking a pill to clog us up more. Foods high in natural calcium might be doing a better job in absorption then pills. We shouldn't have to be guessing about all this.

I found out what ages the people were:

The researchers looked at MRI brain scans from 232 men and women, aged 60 to 86, all of whom showed brain lesions of varying sizes.

Elderly at 60, yeah right. 60 is the new 50.

fancy2 · May 2007

Hi, guys. I just found this thread. Mass confusion--so I went over to the LEF site (Life Extension Foundation-- www.lef.org ) and checked. THEY haven't posted any real news on Calcium since 2006. They DO have a blurb on epidemic vitamin D deficiencies.

I think maybe these old folks studied in this article were in the group that believe that if some milk is good for you, TONS of milk is better for you. That's not true. Actually, 3-4 glasses of milk a day can cause major problems for you.

This is a direct quote from the news article:
"But Harris said that no one should be unduly alarmed by the current findings, at least for the time being.

"You wouldn't want to change your intake of calcium and vitamin D based on this study," she advised. "It may generate some hypotheses that are worth testing, but at this point the research can't really speak to whether the brain lesions were related to the calcium, vitamin D, or some other factor that people with high intakes of calcium and vitamin D also have."

So there's no need to panic. Also, the study did not say anything about magnesium consumption. If you don't take enough magnesium, your body can NOT absorb calcium. I didn't hear anything about that fact in this article.

Rosemary44 · May 2007

Here's a little more on the subject. There's a quote from a Dr. about lowering calcium dose:

"Dr. Guy Abraham, M.D., a research gynecologist and endocrinologist in premenstrual syndrome and osteoporosis has found strong evidence to suggest that women with osteoporosis have a deficiency of a chemical that is made when they take twice as much magnesium as calcium. In fact, he has found that when calcium intake is decreased, it is utilized better than when it is high. Dr. Abraham is one of many doctors and biochemists who advocate taking more magnesium to correct calcium-deficiency diseases."

http://www.mgwater.com/calmagab.shtml

mcgaffey · May 2007

My gynecologist is having me take increased magnesium tabs that dissolve in water and I drink it.

saluki · May 2007

Here is another something to consider that I've been running across--also a matter of balance like the magnesium. Somewhere I read 4 parts phosphorus to 10 parts calcium.

So, if you are getting 4 parts phosphorus to 9 part calcium you could be creating a deficiency.
--------------------------------------------------------
Osteoporosis Patients Advised to Combine Calcium with Phosphorus
=======================================================
Osteoporosis patients should combine calcium with phosphorus to avoid phosphorus deficiency, according to a study published in the Journal of the American College of Nutrition.

Patients with osteoporosis should receive their calcium in the form of calcium phosphate because as calcium intake increases without a corresponding increase in phosphorus, total phosphorus absorption falls and the risk for phosphorous deficiency rises. A deficiency in phosphorus can make calcium supplements less effective and lead to increased bone loss.

"This means that even if women at risk for bone loss were taking calcium supplements, without the necessary phosphorus, these supplements would not only fail to stem the bone loss, but could even lead to an overall phosphorus deficiency," said Dr. Machelle Seibel, women's health and nutrition expert.

"Phosphorus is required to merge calcium into bone. This typically takes place in the intestinal tract," she said. "Without enough phosphorus in their systems, the millions of American women taking over-the-counter calcium supplements may be robbing their bodies' natural store of phosphorus in order to digest the calcium they take. Making sure your calcium supplement contains phosphorus is a good way to avoid this."

"This news is going to affect millions of American women -- particularly the 44 million who are currently suffering with osteoporosis and those at risk for developing low bone mass," said Seibel.

Source: Medical Week staff, week of June 9, 2002

Rosemary44 · May 2007

Phosphorus is also in a lot of foods. I wouldn't want to supplement that till I took a blood test to find out if I needed to. Too much and it can throw off levels of other minerals, metals. Nature does a good job with providing this cause there's even some of it in beer and wine.

BlindedByScience · May 2007

There's one supplement that combines calcium/Vit D/magnesium/phosphorus--it's called Posture D. Here's their website (and I found this brand at Long's Drug Store):

http://www.postured.com/

I believe I first heard of this supplement from Edge or his site.

Calcium and vitmin D---Please give me a break!

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