In Favor of Feminism: Share Your Views

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  • Nkb
    Nkb Member Posts: 1,436
    edited October 2021

    I think that the term girls is used often to diminish a woman and that is when it feels bad- I think less so when women use it playfully or as good friends. try substituting boys and you see how it would be diminishing to them also.

    There are countries in South America who have jailed women for having miscarriages as murder- even without taking drugs.

    I do think that a lot is generational also- but, it is freeing to de genderize a lot of rhetoric- took practice for me to address a non binary person using they and them due to my strict grammar upbringing. I can imagine that in languages that genderize all nouns it would be a challenge.

  • exbrnxgrl
    exbrnxgrl Member Posts: 12,424
    edited October 2021

    nkb,

    Excellent points. I freely acknowledge that it will take some effort for me to get used to new non-gender specific language, but I believe that change is good!

  • SummerAngel
    SummerAngel Member Posts: 1,006
    edited October 2021

    It's interesting reading about the like/dislike of various words. I actually enjoy using the word "guys" for both men and women because I feel like it's become gender-neutral and we women can own the word as much as any man. I detest the word "gals" and find it insulting, not sure why. I think, to me, it implies "older women". I was actually thrilled when a few 20-something coworkers called me "dude", because that meant that they didn't just think of me as a mentor/mom-figure, they accepted me as someone they wanted to just talk to socially.

  • wrenn
    wrenn Member Posts: 2,707
    edited October 2021

    I am just learning that some people find being seen as an "older woman"/referred to as "ma'am" insulting.

    Being old feels like a win to me. :-)

  • DivineMrsM
    DivineMrsM Member Posts: 9,620
    edited October 2021

    How Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Gloria Steinem Fought For Your Right to Get a Beer


    Mallory O'Meara on a Surprising Gender Discrimination Case


    By

    October 19, 2021

    Many of us are familiar with the second wave of feminism's fights for birth control, abortion and equal pay, but you may be unfamiliar with something else activists battled for during the 1960s and 70s: the bar stool.

    During the 1960s, gender discrimination was a widely accepted feature of the bar. It was ubiquitous, like cheap beer and little bowls of salty snacks. Depending on the state, women were only allowed into bars at certain times, or only with male escorts, or sometimes, not at all. There were states where women couldn't work in bars, even if they owned them.

    The 1948 Supreme Court case of Goesaert v. Cleary upheld a Michigan law which prohibited women from bartending in all cities that had a population of 50,000 or more, unless their father or husband owned the establishment. The plaintiff in the case, Valentine Goesaert, owned a bar in Dearborn. She wanted to be able to bartend in her own goddamn bar and she wanted her female staff to be able to, as well. But Goesaert lost the case, because the court ruled that, since bartending could lead to "moral and social problems" for women, Michigan (and any other state) had the power to prohibit them from being bartenders.

    Sound like bullshit? It is, of course. Unfortunately, it's bullshit that predates bars themselves.

    At the time Goesaert v. Cleary was being decided, gendered drinking discrimination had been around for over a thousand years. Since the days of Babylon, in cultures all over the world, women were not allowed to drink in public, or at all. In the early days of Rome, women could be put to death if they were found drinking.

    >>> This ancient sexism also masked itself with concern for "moral and social problems". In the code of Hammurabithe legal document that essentially established the patriarchy it was written that "godly" women could not drink. It came from the male fear that women would act like people, instead of like property. The code of Hammurabi set in stone that women and their reproductive rights were the property of men, either fathers or husbands. If a woman went off to party and drink, she might have a fling that resulted in the loss of her virginity, a direct financial blow to her husband or father. It wasn't about morals. It was about control.

    So, public drinking culture, with some exceptions, developed over the centuries as a mostly male space. By the time bars as we know them today started popping up in America, "women shouldn't drink in public" was an accepted social rule, just like "everyone should wear clothes."

    Until one December evening in 1967.

    On that night in Syracuse, New York, a journalism student named Joan Kennedy had just finished Christmas shopping with her mother, and the two women decided to go into the bar at the Hotel Syracuse. The bar, named The Rainbow Lounge, denied them entry on the grounds that they were without male escorts. Kennedy was furious.

    Soon afterwards, she approached Karen DeCrow, who was then a law student active in the brand spanking new chapter of the National Organization for Women (NOW) in Syracuse.

    At first, NOW had a lot of internal disagreement about whether it should be a priority for the organization to make the barstool a battleground for the women's rights movement. Equal pay seemed to be a lofty pursuit, but was having a beer in public just as lofty? Lots of members didn't think so.

    DeCrow, however, did.

    It seems trivial, being able to drink in a bar. But since the earliest days of civilization, the public watering hole was crucial to popular culture, to professional partnerships, to the creation of neighborly bonds, the maintenance of community, and the dissemination of news and local knowledge. A lot of important stuff happened at the tavern and the bar, a place where women were unwelcome.

    DeCrow argued that going to a bar was a symbol of being a free person and a way to get women integrated into the workplace. She thought it was crucial for women to be able to leave the home and hang out in the public sphere, where networking and business meetings happened. Since so many states, cities and towns allowed discrimination behind the bar as well, it also kept a lot of women out of a potential job. In 1964, twenty-six states still prohibited women from bartending.

    The rest of NOW eventually agreed with DeCrow, and then she launched a plan.

    NOW activists traveled from all around the country to participate in a sit-in that she organized at The Rainbow Lounge. Unfortunately, the hotel was ready for them. The owners had taken precautionary measures—right before the protesters arrived, the hotel staff changed the numbers on the occupancy limit sign in the bar from 110 to 6. To top it off, they removed the seats from all the bar stools. It didn't deter the NOW protesters, though. Afterwards, DeCrow issued a lawsuit against the Hotel Syracuse.

    The next year, after a few more sit-ins, DeCrow brought the issue of gendered bar discrimination to the 1968 NOW Convention in New York City. The convention was held at the Biltmore Hotel, which was perfect for the point DeCrow was trying to make: the hotel had a men-only bar.

    In February of the following year, DeCrow organized "Public Accommodations Week" with other members of NOW. Part of the week of activism and protests involved "drink-ins" at men-only bars across the entire country. At the Plaza Hotel's Oak Room in New York City, Betty Friedan's party of three was refused service by the bartender.

    McSorley's, a bar in Manhattan, had never served a woman in all 115 years of its existence. The bar sported a sign on its front door proclaiming, "No Back Room In Here For Ladies." The owners were proud that they had "thrived for over a century on good ale, raw onions and no women."

    For DeCrow's drink-in that week, she marched into the stinky atmosphere of McSorley's with a group of fellow NOW members. The women were ignored by the bartenders and when one man tried to buy drinks for all of them, an angry crowd of men grabbed him and quite literally threw him out the door.

    By the next year, NOW's protests and drink-ins had finally paid off. In 1970, New York City law eliminated gender discrimination in all public places. Some bars refused to comply with the law and had to be forced to let women in. Some bars welcomed their new customers. Some tried to turn the whole affair into a publicity stunt, such as Berghoff's, who publicly invited Gloria Steinem (and a whole bunch of media) to come and have a drink.

    In 1976, the Goesaert v. Cleary decision was overturned by another discrimination case. Craig v. Boren started in Oklahoma, where 3.2 percent ABV beer was available for purchase by women at the age of eighteen, but not by men until the age of twenty-one. This was a holdover from the practice of women buying beer to bring home for their families. The thinking was that women needed to be able to bring home beer for their husbands and families to drink, but men only bought beer for themselves to drink. A 20-year-old man named Curtis Craig and a female liquor store owner named Carolyn Whitener agreed that the law needed to be changed. The two teamed up to challenge it in court.

    The lawsuit was in rough shape until a brilliant legal counsel at the Women's Rights Project at the ACLU offered some assistance. It was Ruth Bader Ginsburg, future Supreme Court justice herself. She wrote to the lawyer on the case, saying that she was "delighted to see the Supreme Court is interested in beer drinkers."

    With Ginsburg's help, the case was argued successfully. The Supreme Court ruled that the Oklahoma law made unconstitutional gender classifications. With this ruling, a new standard for review in gender discrimination cases was set and Goesaert v. Cleary was overruled.

    Next time you have a beer, raise your glass to Karen DeCrow, second wave feminists, and RBG.

  • AliceBastable
    AliceBastable Member Posts: 3,461
    edited October 2021

    Gosh, that's surprising. I started going to bars with other young women my age in 1970 and it was never a big deal.

  • DivineMrsM
    DivineMrsM Member Posts: 9,620
    edited October 2021

    Meet Atlanta Symphony Orchestra's groundbreaking 1st female conductor


    Nathalie Stutzmann shared her journey of realizing a childhood dream to become just the second woman to lead a major U.S. orchestra.


    Scott Stump/ NBC Today/ Oct. 18, 2021

    A dream that began as a child is now a groundbreaking reality for Nathalie Stutzmann after she was named the first female music director in the 77-year history of the Atlanta Symphony Orchestra.

    The 56-year-old native of France spoke with Jenna Bush Hager on TODAY Monday about becoming just the second woman to be selected as music director of a top-tier U.S. orchestra. Stutzmann conducted her debut concert last week.

    "Oh my gosh, I have no words," she said. "It was so moving, and the welcome of the audience, which I met actually yesterday night for the first time, was just amazing."

    Stutzmann is the only woman to currently lead a major U.S. orchestra, following in the footsteps of Marin Alsop, 64, who was named music director of the Baltimore Symphony Orchestra in 2007. Alsop was the first woman to hold the position at a major U.S. orchestra, and she concluded her historic 14-year tenure this year.

    Stutzmann's ascension to leading the Atlanta Symphony Orchestra is the culmination of a dream she had as a young girl.

    "I very much remember, I must have been 7 or 8, and I was in the orchestra pit and I watched the conductor," she said. "And when he was taking his baton I thought he was Mickey Mouse in 'Fantasia,' because he was taking this baton and he was doing this.

    "And the sound was coming there. For me, I couldn't explain. I said, 'How is it possible that this guy does this?' And I say this guy, because it always was a guy. So I was dreaming to have a baton in my hands. And I must tell you, I have been conducting in my heart, in my soul, all through my life."

    image


    Stutzmann is the daughter of two opera singers and studied music in school. When she was repeatedly passed over as a conductor in favor of men, she became a celebrated contralto (the lowest range of a classical female singing voice) while still harboring aspirations of breaking through as a conductor.

    "It was so frustrating," she said. "It was so sad for me that after a couple of months it was clear to me that at that time, as a woman, forget it, because you will never make it (as a conductor)."

    She performed as a contralto in some of the world's most prestigious opera houses while studying the maestros in the pit.

    "I sang with all the greatest conductors in the greatest orchestras of the world, but I think my conducting dream was always there," she said.

    "But of course, I was enjoying to watch all the greatest maestros and no young conductor can have a better teaching course than so many years of music making with the greatest people."

    When she decided to pursue a career as a conductor, she not only had to overcome skepticism of a singer making the transition, but also being the rare woman on the podium

    "I must admit that I spent many nights coming back to my hotel in tears, and thinking the next day I stop," she said. "Because if conducting is this, if I'm going to be treated so bad, I will stop. And the next morning I was going up again."


    Stutuzmann described what has been so magnetic to her over the years about being a conductor.

    "I must say, it's probably the most addictive thing on Earth," she said. "Everything you do with your body language, with your eyes, with what you ask to the musicians, has an impact on the sound.

    >>> "And when you feel 100 people at the edge of your hands, of your body, of your soul, and everyone going in the same direction, it's like when the birds are flying for the migration, and you are amazed to see them all flying in the same direction. It's completely impossible to understand how it works. This is the same feeling. It's heaven."

    Now that she has reached a historic milestone, she takes pride in knowing she is helping pave the way for more women to conduct major U.S. orchestras.

    "I dreamed about it, and it's like that," she said. "Now it feels really natural to me.

    "When I'm on the podium I feel this is where I should be. And this is a very special feeling."

  • AliceBastable
    AliceBastable Member Posts: 3,461
    edited October 2021

    One more glass ceiling shattered, hooray!

  • DivineMrsM
    DivineMrsM Member Posts: 9,620
    edited October 2021

    This was too funny not to share, so I took a bunch of screen shots of it:



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  • Miriandra
    Miriandra Member Posts: 1,327
    edited October 2021
  • illimae
    illimae Member Posts: 5,710
    edited October 2021

    Divine, thank you, I needed the laugh this morning.

  • tinkerbell65
    tinkerbell65 Member Posts: 51
    edited October 2021

    Divine - I loved reading your posts today. thanks for making my day!

  • AliceBastable
    AliceBastable Member Posts: 3,461
    edited October 2021

    Brilliant. I use Cover Girl and a shiv. I'm cheap. 😃

  • saltmarsh
    saltmarsh Member Posts: 227
    edited October 2021

    I love that thread! Thank you for sharing!

  • magiclight
    magiclight Member Posts: 8,690
    edited October 2021

    I'm posting this here though it intersects with several threads.

    Just watched My name is Pauli Murray. "Overlooked by history, Pauli Murray was a legal trailblazer whose ideas influenced RBG's fight for gender equality and Thurgood Marshall's civil rights arguments. This is a portrait of their impact as a non-binary Black luminary: lawyer, activist, poet, and priest who transformed our world." Pauli used she/her pronouns and Negro as descriptors. She died in 1985 so we don't know her thoughts on evolving gender pronouns. Just because their name is not widely known does not make their life less extraordinary and influential.

    Maybe some of you may already know of Pauli Murray and been influenced by that knowledge.

    Pauli Murray College is a residential college for undergraduates of Yale College in New Haven, Connecticut. Welcome | Pauli Murray College (yale.edu)

    About the Center — Pauli Murray Center

  • DivineMrsM
    DivineMrsM Member Posts: 9,620
    edited October 2021
  • exbrnxgrl
    exbrnxgrl Member Posts: 12,424
    edited October 2021

    Great post divine! I like statistics

  • magiclight
    magiclight Member Posts: 8,690
    edited October 2021

    Divine good reminder of how far women have yet to go to reach equality with men.

  • illimae
    illimae Member Posts: 5,710
    edited November 2021

    A little laugh from Instagram today

    image

  • bitchonwheels
    bitchonwheels Member Posts: 13
    edited November 2021

    I will never forget working as a legal secretary in the 1980's and writing a legal document that described a spinster as a woman who had never married - meanwhile there was no description of a man as such and feeling like something was wrong. Fast forward to birthing a daughter who I groomed to be a warrior who majored in women and gender studies in college, went to law school and is an Assistant AG and then I gave birth at 42 to another warrior daughter who is in college and getting ready to go to law school. These are some bad ass bitches - RBG would be proud

  • Miriandra
    Miriandra Member Posts: 1,327
    edited November 2021

    A man who never married - "Confirmed bachelor". Sounds so much more positive and autonomous, yet still tantalizingly available, than "spinster", eh?

    Historically, "spinster" didn't carry as much negative connotation as it does today. It used to refer to a person whose job was to prepare and spin fiber for yarn or thread, like "smith" or "baker". Because the job didn't require expensive equipment, unmarried women who didn't have much of their own resources would take on these jobs. Over time, and as automation took over the fiber industry, the term became associated with the unmarried women who did the job rather than the job itself. So in reality, a "spinster" is a woman who pursued a trade to improve her state independently rather than getting married right away.

    Origin of "Spinster"

  • wrenn
    wrenn Member Posts: 2,707
    edited November 2021

    Deciding after 2 failed marriages (60s and then 80s anti feminism world) I had wished that I had remained single. "Spinster" sounded so strong and refreshing to me and I coveted that identity. I felt weak for having tried to maintain and then failing at a situation that, looking back, was impossible for me given the times and my independent attitude. I was either born too early or too late.

  • DivineMrsM
    DivineMrsM Member Posts: 9,620
    edited November 2021

    Interesting details on the origin of spinster.
    wrenn, I hope you no longer view yourself as weak for your failed marriages.



    Here's a follow-up story over the women's Olympic team that fought their uniform rules:


    Norway's beach handball team wins fight over sexist uniform rules

    Female players will now only be required to compete in "short tight pants with a close fit," and a "body fit tank top," the International Handball Federation says in new rules.


    Nov. 1, 2021

    Female beach handball players will no longer have to compete in bikinis, the sport's international federation has decided some three months after a decision to fine Norway's team for wearing shorts instead of the regulation bikinis triggered widespread outrage.

    From January 2022, women will be required to wear "short tight pants with a close fit" and a "body fit tank top" when competing, according to the new regulations published by the International Handball Federation. The rules were updated Oct. 3 but have only now begun to garner widespread attention.

    Female players could previously be fined or disqualified unless they wore midriff-baring tops and bikini bottoms "with a close fit and cut on an upward angle toward the top of the leg." Male players, meanwhile, were allowed to play in tank tops and shorts no longer than 4 inches above the knee.

    Norwegian Handball Federation President Kåre Geir Lio called the change "both a real and symbolic step" toward combating gender inequality in the sport.

    "I think it's good for the game, but first of all, it's good for the women, and it's good for how we treat each other in sports," he told NBC News by phone from Bodø, Norway, on Monday.

    While the new uniform regulations still differ between men and women — women's shorts are still required to be fitted, whereas men have no such rule — Lio said that the female players had told him they played better in the tight shorts, and were "very satisfied" with their new ability to choose the length.

    The Norwegian women's team had received support from all over the world after its players wore their preferred thigh-length elastic shorts during a match July 25 to protest against the regulation bikini-bottom design that they said made them "very uncomfortable." The team was fined 1,500 euros ($1,700).

    The Norwegian Handball Federation has pushed for a change to the uniform rules since 2006, but the women's protest in July was a turning point, Lio said.

    American musician Pink offered to pay the fine imposed on the team by the European Handball Federation for the rules breach, but that hadn't been necessary, Lio said. The federation ultimately donated the money "to a major international sports foundation which supports equality for women and girls in sports," it later said.

    Lio and and International Handball Federation President Hassan Moustafa held behind-the-scenes talks during the Tokyo Olympics later that month on the issue, and sports ministers of Norway, Sweden, Finland, Iceland and Denmark called on the federation to finally take action on the issue in an open letter in September. By the beginning of October, the council had agreed to the changes.

    The influx of global support was "quite special," said Lio, who called the sudden media attention "a new experience" for him and the team, which represents the comparatively small sport for a country of just 5 million people.

  • Dancemom
    Dancemom Member Posts: 369
    edited November 2021

    Great topic! So much interesting history on here!

    Reminds me of a story my mother told me about the train station in Belfast (I think?) when she was young. There was a waiting room for Ladies. Women had to wait in a different area. Classest implications, Ladies in 1st class didn't have jobs outside the household. Women worked. I am from a long proud line of working WOMEN.

  • magiclight
    magiclight Member Posts: 8,690
    edited November 2021

    Such a low bar! Men have no requirements to wear "short tight fit" and "body fit tank top." Is the current change for women good? Yes? Does it remain sexist? Yes.

    That women players must accept sexist dress and call it a win is truly disappointing.

  • DivineMrsM
    DivineMrsM Member Posts: 9,620
    edited November 2021
  • magiclight
    magiclight Member Posts: 8,690
    edited November 2021


    Women veterans

    Women Veterans Issues A Historical Perspective: Women Veterans were the best-kept secret for many years. The 1980 Census was the first time that American women were asked if they had ever served in the Armed Forces, and an astonishing 1.2 million said "yes." Because very few of these newly identified Veterans used VA services, Congress and VA began a concerted effort to recognize and inform them of their benefits and entitlements. Activities were initiated to increase public awareness about services for women in the military and women Veterans. Soon after the 1980 census, Congress granted veteran status to women who had served in the Women's Army Auxiliary Corps (WAAC) during World War II. In 1982, at the request of Senator Daniel Inouye, the General Accounting Office (GAO), conducted a study and issued a report entitled: "Actions Needed to Insure that Female Veterans Have Equal Access to VA Benefits." This study found that:  Women did not have equal access to VA benefits.  Women treated in VA facilities did not receive complete physical examinations.  VA was not providing gynecological care.  Women Veterans were not adequately informed of their benefits under the law.

  • wrenn
    wrenn Member Posts: 2,707
    edited November 2021

    I was happy to read on another thread about a husband accompanying his wife to her doctor appointment when he (the husband) was complaining about the doctor ignoring him when he asked questions and directed the answers to the actual patient.

    Not that long ago the female patient would have been ignored and all communication would have been directed to the husband.

  • MinusTwo
    MinusTwo Member Posts: 16,634
    edited November 2021

    Right on Wrenn!!! Kudos to that doc for talking directly to the woman patient even if she had nominally seceded all control to the husband.

    Interesting to note about myself - I originally wrote 'seceded all control to the male half'. But I caught myself remembering that couples could just as likely be same sex and power issues may be in effect even it isn't from the patriarchy. Chances are from your post that it sounds like a man. And there's my prejudice showing again. I almost wrote "typical man".

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