Biopsy without at least US?

Options
icic14
icic14 Member Posts: 11
edited December 2020 in Not Diagnosed But Worried

Is it okay to do biopsy (by taking the fluid inside the breast) without at least checked with US?

Please, I need your opinion. I'm really new to everything.

My mom's 58 y.o.

Her right breast is smaller than the other one (big difference). Kinda looks like almost flat and it doesn't look like breast anymore. There's a lump with normal skin color. And under the lump, there's like quite long scar in which she never had any cut or injury there. Nipple revert (my dad said it's been like that for like 25 years). No nipple discharge. But half of her breast skin (which now is flat) felt thick, dry, and there's redness.

My dad accompanied her to the surgical doctor today (not an oncologyst coz there's none in the area they live in). But turns out the doctor only checked the breast with hands and didn't do US or Mammography and make a biopsy appointment for this week.


Comments

  • Beesie
    Beesie Member Posts: 12,240
    edited December 2020

    Well, it depends on whether you are talking about a true biopsy or a fine needle aspiration for a cyst. If the doctor strongly believes that the lump is a cyst, a FNA is a quick and easy procedure that can extract the fluid and deflate the cyst. I've had lots of cysts over the years and at times my doctor would do a FNA on the spot before sending me for imaging, because if the lump was a cyst, then no further action would be required. This would only happen when I had a large, palpable lump - easy for the doctor to find to insert the needle.

    But the description of your mother's situation sounds a lot more complex than a normal cyst. In that case, normally mammogram and ultrasound screening would be done. Did the surgeon say anything about the appearance of your mother's breast? The scar and the thickened red skin warrants more investigation.

    Do you know what type of biopsy has been ordered? A FNA is what's done for a cyst, but when we talk about breast biopsies, usually we are referring to stereotactic / core needle biopsies, which are either mammogram-guided (stereotactic) or ultrasound-guided. So if one of these types of biopsies has been ordered, then they come with the diagnostic mammogram and/or ultrasound screening. So it could be that the doctor is concerned enough that he has ordered the biopsy right away, along with the imaging, rather than scheduling the imaging first and then deciding on whether a biopsy is necessary. Another type of breast biopsy is a punch biopsy of the skin, which might also be appropriate in your mother's situation given the appearance of her skin, and this wouldn't require any imaging in advance.

    So, definitely need more information about what's been ordered before saying whether there is any concern or anything missing in the process.


  • margo53
    margo53 Member Posts: 165
    edited December 2020

    Hi icic......do you know when your moms last mammogram was? I feel as though she should ask for an US and/or mammogram first. At least they would know more that way .....all the best to you and your mom

  • MelissaDallas
    MelissaDallas Member Posts: 7,268
    edited December 2020

    The plan for the biopsy may include ultrasound or mammographic guidance

  • AliceBastable
    AliceBastable Member Posts: 3,461
    edited December 2020

    Is it perhaps a punch biopsy?

  • icic14
    icic14 Member Posts: 11
    edited December 2020

    Thank you for everyone's response. Really glad I found this community 😭

    I think the doctor ordered to do an FNA.

    I consulted to another oncologyst online and he said it is better to do imaging first before biopsy to know for sure whether it is benign or malignant and whether it's ok to do the biopsy right away.

    If it is malignant, the onco said that we need to check the stage first, before biopsy, because for certain stage, it's not allowed to do biopsy right away.

    Is that true?

    I thought biopsy is a must to know more about the lump.

  • AliceBastable
    AliceBastable Member Posts: 3,461
    edited December 2020

    Yes, they need the imaging to get the best possible idea of the size, location, and what type of lump it might be. Imaging will not tell them if it's definitely cancer or not, but it gives them the information they need to determine what type of biopsy to do, or if something else needs to be done. Trying to biopsy a lump with no imaging is, pretty literally, a stab in the dark.

  • LivinLife
    LivinLife Member Posts: 1,332
    edited December 2020

    Welcome icic! I'm with others hoping some sort of imaging will happen as a part of biopsy... Otherwise you may want to talk with your mother about asking for imaging... Obviously if the biopsy comes back positive there will be referrals and hopefully standard protocol for her situation. I guess I kind of wonder about that too since you said there is not even an oncologist in your parents' area... I hope your mom has access to good care if she needs additional follow-up even if that means a reasonable drive?

  • icic14
    icic14 Member Posts: 11
    edited December 2020

    Thank you for all the helpful information. I need to tell my parents to demand for an imaging first before the biopsy.

    Actually the drive to the oncologyst in another city is just 2 hours away. But it's kind of hard to do because she's not mentally & phsycally healthy and we don't know what procedure she'll be told to do. Years ago she'd been diagnosed with OCD and a little bit of Skizophrenia before. And after the 2 mental illness gotten quite better, she started having tremor on hands and legs. Now she can't walk or use her hands normally. Staying overnight in a new place is new and hard for her. And she may just go 'I don't wanna do this, I wanna go home' anytime.

    If only we can know what procedure she'll be told to do, maybe me & my dad can plan for everything.

  • MelissaDallas
    MelissaDallas Member Posts: 7,268
    edited December 2020

    icic14, is your Mom in the US? If so, there is no way any medical facility would refuse to give prior confirmation as to what procedures (or possible procedures) they intend to do at an appointment. The question is who they can communicate this to. Now this may be a HIPAA issue where they cannot communicate other than with your Mom without her permission to speak to your Dad or you, but this isn’t just a “blank” anything-goes time slot. I do not doubt that a doctor could clearly recognize by appearance and/or clinical exam that she requires a referral for biopsy, even without having current imaging. The question is, where has she been referred to and exactly what procedures will be performed at that appointment? This sounds like a communication issue to me. Someone knows and can confirm what happens next so that determination can be made as to whether that plan is appropriate. What is appropriate is a mammogram, probably followed by an ultrasound and then an ultrasound or mammogram guided (stereotactic) core biopsy, subject to any limitations your mom’s current state of health

    Just for the record, FNA biopsies are not optimal for most things because frequently they collect insufficient cellular material to make any definitive diagnosis. but at this tome you just think (and don’t know for sure) that this may or may not have been ordered.

    Of course, your Mom’s health status and schizophrenia likely complicate all of this.

  • peggysmom
    peggysmom Member Posts: 50
    edited December 2020

    Your description of your moms right breast sounds extremely suspicious for an advanced invasive cancer, perhaps nearly replacing the entire breast.

    No, it is not standard for a breast imager to proceed to biopsy without imaging.

    But, if the physical exam is as convincing as your description and there is an easily palpable obvious hard firm fixed mass and the doctor feels confident to biopsy, well- he/she seems confident in their skills and the expected diagnosis.

    In this case, although not standard of care here in the USA to biopsy without any baseline imaging, it doesn't seem like imaging is going to add much information. Other reasons the doc decided to proceed directly may incude access to equipment and cost.

    Good luck- hoping for the best.

  • icic14
    icic14 Member Posts: 11
    edited December 2020

    Hi, this is the continuation from my mom's story that I posted a few days ago.

    My Mom did the US yesterday, we haven't meet the doctor yet to hear anything, we have appointment for Monday, but this is just depressing because I read it says "suggestive of being malignant" in the end of the result.

    This is the full one :
    Right breast : Cutis & subcutis good. No thickening. Retracted papilla. Hipoechoic inhomogen, iregular, and spiculated size 1.55 x 1.39 cm, not hypervascularization on color doppler. No calcification. No enlarged lymph nodes.

    Left breast : Cutis & subcutis good. No thickening. No papilla retraction. There's iso-hiperechoic (?), quite indistinct margin. Superoinferial lateral (?) with quite indistinct margin. Enlarged left axilla nodes (lymph axilla), multiple (size 0.88 x 0.44 cm and 0.45 x 0.31 cm).

    Radiologist's conlusion on the letter says : Mass on right breast with papilla retraction. Suggestive of being malignant. Mass on left breast with multiple left axilla lymphadenopathy.

    My questions are :

    1. How accurate is the statement about "suggestive of being malignant"?

    2. What does "superoinferial lateral (?) " mean?

    3. Are multiple enlarged left axilla nodes / lymph axilla / lymphadenopathy bad?

    Thank you.

  • MelissaDallas
    MelissaDallas Member Posts: 7,268
    edited December 2020

    icic14, what country is your mother in

  • moth
    moth Member Posts: 4,800
    edited December 2020

    1) radiologists do get pretty good at assessing masses but sometimes they are wrong. That's why a biopsy is needed. Is there something which says BIRADS and then a number behind it?

    2).those are just anatomical locations. Like saying north or south except in medicine. They sound a bit garbled - perhaps voice transcription software was used

    3) depends on what is in the lymph nodes . She needs a biopsy.


  • Beesie
    Beesie Member Posts: 12,240
    edited December 2020

    I'm glad to hear that your mother did have the ultrasound and wasn't sent straight for a biopsy. Is she now scheduled for a biopsy, or two biopsies, one on each breast?

    Do you actually have the radiology report? If so, is there a BI-RADs score on it? Usually it would be noted near the bottom of the report, or at the end of the description of the imaging.

    A BI-RADs 4 is considered "suspicious" for malignancy. Approximately 25% of BI-RADS 4 biopsies end up being cancer. There are 4A (>2% - 10%), 4B (>10% - 50%) and 4C (>50% - 95%) categories that define the risk more tightly.

    A BI-RADs 5 is considered "highly suggestive of malignancy". Approximately 95% of BI-RADs 5 biopsies end up being cancer.

    So how accurate is the statement "suggestive of malignancy"? It depends on how the radiologist categorized the imaging. He didn't include the word "highly" but from the description of the imaging, I suspect that the radiologist most likely assigned a BI-RADs 5 to your mother's imaging. If that is the case, then it is highly likely that your mother is looking at a cancer diagnosis.

    "Superoinferial lateral" refers to the location. Not sure about the term "superoinferial" however. I know that "Superior lateral" is the upper outer quadrant of the breast and "Inferior lateral" means lower outer quadrant. Maybe "superoinferial" means that the mass is in both the upper and lower quadrants.

    Lymph nodes can enlarge because of cancer or because of infection. So having multiple enlarged left axilla nodes might mean the presence of cancer in the nodes, but it might not. From the description alone it's not necessarily bad, but it probably warrants investigation.

    That's what I can come up with. Maybe someone else can add more.

  • icic14
    icic14 Member Posts: 11
    edited December 2020

    Thanks to moth and Beesie for the explanation. Sadly there's no BIRAD written on anywhere.

    So my mom has a mass in right breast which probably is malignant, a hyperechoic mass in left, and 2 enlarged left lymph nodes. Is it better to get everything done (biopsy & treatment) at the same time or one after another?

    I heard from a friend whose mom passed away because of BC, she said the treatment's like : chemo 6 times -> radiation 1 month everyday. And that patient MUST NOT skip the radiation even if it's just for a day/once. Is it true?

    And, we live in Indonesia. The procedures here often confuse patients. And most of the time doctors do not tell you what option you have, and why you should do what he told you to do instead of the other options. That's why I tried to share here, because I don't want to just follow what they said, just in case if they miss or skip something.

Categories