Inconsistent Information - Confused
Hello, I was recently diagnosed with IDC er/pr+ her2-. I had surgery this week and the pathology report showed the primary tumor was 1.6cm and I had ITC in one lymph node and micro mets in another lymph node - a total of 4 were taken, so 2 were clean. When I met with the oncologist a couple of weeks ago, she indicated that because of my age (42), she would highly suggest chemotherapy with any lymph node involvement. I even had her clarify that she meant even micro-metastasis. She said yes. Now she is suggesting to just increase the radiation range to include the axilla, and go with hormone therapy without adjuvant chemo. I'm so confused. I am equally confused in consulting the NCCN guidelines.
Are there others out there who have had oncologists that have flipped on their initial recommendation? She wants to send the tumor for oncotype testing, but says that she doesn't think that it will come back with a high enough number to warrant chemo. Can oncologists predict the result of the oncotype test?
I know treatment protocols are changing all the time. Is anyone else with relatively small tumors (<2cm) and micromets in the lymph nodes er/pr+ her2- going through chemo, or is she right that it really would be overtreating?
Comments
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Hi!
Can you ask your oncologist to have your tumor undergo the Oncotype Test? That test might give you a better indication of whether or not chemo would be beneficial in your case. Yes, treatment protocols are changing and oncologists have become more selective about recommending chemo. I'm sorry your oncologist has been all over the map. Good luck!
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I don't know how they would know what the Oncotype comes back as because it is looking at genes. It would definitely be a good way to make your decision (the Oncotype). Also are you doing BRCA or any other genetic blood tests?
My only other suggestion is to get a 2nd opinion. I did that & felt 100 times better about my decision.
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Thanks for the responses. I am definitely going to push for the Oncotype test. I think there is a bit of communication breakdown between the surgeon and the oncologist. For insurance reasons, they are in different hospitals. My oncologist said she would ask the surgeon to send the tumor for Oncotype testing, but when I spoke with the surgeon she said that the oncologist handles sending the sample for Oncotype testing. I'm not feeling great confidence in my oncologist right now.
I did do other gene testing - they tested for 9 different genetic mutations and everything came back negative.
It's tough to be a patient patient.
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Did she take it to the tumor board?
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Hi,
I was mid 40's when diagnosed. 1.4 cm, low grade, no nodes, er and pr positive. My onc said at first i should do chemo due to younger age. However, he then changed his mind and said he was not sure. I ended up not doing chemo. I am now 10 years out, with a local recurrence last year. For now NED. I don't know if this helps, but i do remember how difficult the decison was for me at the time. xoxo
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What is the tumor board?
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I believe you should have the Oncotype test. My doctor suggested chemo might be necessary because of my micromet. After getting the results of the Oncotype we discovered that my survival would actually be lower with chemo vs. without chemo. Best to have the info. before going forward, in my opinion.
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Operamom, your oncologist orders the oncotype, but in your case, the sample must be obtained from the hospital where you had your surgery. in other words, both the message you heard from your onc and that you heard from your surgeon are correct.
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Hi Operamom. I agree with BrooksideVT on the process, so you'll have to follow up to be sure the Oncotype DX test gets ordered promptly, and do know that sometimes insurance coverage can be an issue. So good for your doctor for ordering it.
In my case, my doctor was pretty sure it would be radiation and not chemo for me given my ER and PR+ scores (both above 95 percent); my low Ki-67 score (10); and my age (59). I did not have any lymph node involvement. So yes, some doctors do have a gut sense of whether chemo will do more harm than good based on other factors, but it's definitely helpful to have the Oncotype score to confirm it.
In cases where it is a close call, the oncologist usually asks for the opinion of the hospital's standing "tumor board," which is a group of doctors who meet regularly to provide a check on each other's recommendations. And/or, you could go to a completely different hospital to get a second opinion.
Hope that helps. This stage is pretty confusing, but you have 2-3 weeks to figure it out and ultimately you may find out chemo won't really do very much.
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Hi Operamom,
I had micromets and an Oncotype of 12, which indicated little benefit from chemo. I also had a mastectomy and figured that I should at least have radiation, but after getting 3 opinions that said the risk of radiation outweighed the benefit, I didn’t have rads either. My antihormonal is my only treatment so I am very careful about taking it every day and hope to take it as long as my body can handle it. Micromets are tricky because according to my docs they weren’t seen before better technology so they are not sure how to treat them. Mine were very small, just barely over the cutoff for ITCs. Also, my surgeon consulted with my oncologist about the Oncotype, so not sure who ordered it, but it definitely is a good idea to make sure it has been ordered. Good luck and keep us posted.
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Thank you for all of your feedback and suggestions. I clearly need to make sure that the oncologist has requested Oncotype testing. Hopefully the results of that will help me feel more secure about whatever treatment path we choose.
I appreciate everyone's advice! I'll keep you posted!
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My oncologist sent the sample off for Oncotype testing and we are waiting on the results. She is very confident that the results will be low/low-intermediate based on the histology. She was reluctant, frankly, to send it off for testing at all because she is so confident she knows the score will show chemo is unnecessary.
I am trying to be patient about waiting for results, as difficult as that is.
I am curious if there is anyone out there who was particularly surprised by their Oncotype score -- either much higher, or much lower than you had anticipated.
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Hi Operamom- just want to share my experience. During BMX, I had 1 of 4 sentinel nodes show micromets. Final pathology showed 2 of 4 actually had
micromets. My MO ordered Oncotype based on this. While waiting for Oncotype results I did not feel comfortable not knowing the status of my axillary nodes. Both my MO and surgeon said that odds would be slim any axillary nodes would be effected with just micromets. I still was uneasy not knowing so I asked
my surgeon to go back in and do axillary node dissection. Took out an additional 14 nodes and surprise surprise 2 of the 14 were fully positive even moreso than sentinel nodes. My MO called me basically in a panic to give me results and said regardless of what Oncotype says I'm having chemo. So he set me up for AC+T. I had port placement and was ready to begin when he got Oncotype back. It was a 3 which was very low. Even though Oncotype only relevant for 1-3 nodes involved (and I had 4 even though two had micromets) he was encouraged by the score. He changed my chemo regime from AC-T to TC four rounds. He said the heart risk from the A drug now outweighed any benefit. He took my case to tumor board and they said at this point they had to recommend the chemo because of the four nodes. Also now that there were four nodes involved I also had radiation. My MO still says he might've overtreated me but until the studies show that Oncotype relevant for four nodes, he had to recommend some chemo. I was ok with it and I got through it and the radiation. I feel like I threw all I could at it. And if I did not go back in for axillary node dissection, my Oncotype would still have been a 3 and I would've skipped both chemo and radiation and my two positive nodes would still be there and I would not have known and I would've been sent on my way with Tamoxifen and no treatment at all. -
Hello LeesaD,
Thank you so much for sharing your story. You are the second person I've had contact with that has a similar story of micromets that turned out to be the tip of the iceberg.
I had micromets in one node and ITC in another. My surgeon said it was absolutely unnecessary, and not the standard of care, to go back in for axillary node dissection. It makes me nervous. I've been researching like crazy and scouring the internet for studies that have a greater focus on pre-menopausal, node-positive, estrogen receptor positive patients. I can't find anything that puts my mind at ease. I even emailed Genomic Health requesting studies done supporting node-positive, pre-menopausal women. They can't provide any and that is disconcerting.
I will be doing radiation regardless, since my surgery was only a lumpectomy.
Thank you, again, for sharing your story. I am glad to hear that your doctors listened to you, and inspired that you were such an advocate for your care.
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Update...
I received my Oncotype score today. It is a 13. Regardless of the micromets and ITCs in the lymphnodes, I am feeling very good that chemo is definitely not necessary for me -- with a mere 1% benefit.
Waiting is the worst, but I am feeling relieved to have an answer and to be able to move on to radiation.
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Great news! There is a March radiation board starting up so you might check in there and connect with your "posse." The support here helped me a lot during my own RADS. Onward!
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Thank you Georgia1! I'll definitely check it out!
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