TCHP and not getting the Neulesta, anyone else?

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carmstr835
carmstr835 Member Posts: 388

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I am undergoing chemo. Started in on May 22 with TC, then June 27th switched to TCHP because the biopsy results were definitely HER2+. It was a bit of a concern and went before the tumor board with the consensus of treating me as Her2+, so it was changed. I received the Neulasta injection each time until the last one on July 18th. The nurse practitioner felt it wasn't needed since the chemo was changed to Carboplatin and it was only a 4% chance of having low blood counts. I guess I am that 4%. My chemo nurse was very concerned and called to make sure it wasn't an oversight, she said your still on Taxotere, and that hurts you blood. She was right. I made this table of my last 4 chemo treatments and the neutrophil and WBC rebounds, only these are all with the neulasta injection except the July 18th one.



So now I am neutropenic and can't go out. They want me to go for another blood test 72 hours before I return for my port placement Aug 9 and next chemo Aug 10th. But I am worried this won't rebound fast enough and my treatment will be compromised. Anyone else not get a neulasta injection and their blood took a turn for the worse? How fast does it rebound? I have always had the neulasta before and my blood was just barely normal or slightly low. I sure wish I had requested the neulasta instead of letting the nurse practitioner talk me out of it. Now I don't know what to do. I guess I will just wait and stay home and away from people. Any info regarding nuetrophil rebound without treatment is very helpful and will make me feel better about this.

Comments

  • SpecialK
    SpecialK Member Posts: 16,486
    edited July 2017

    Since you are past the 24 hour window for receipt of Neulasta, have any of your providers considered daily Neupogen injections to boost your WBC, with simultaneous prophy antibiotics? Not sure where the 4% figure for neutropenia with TCH(P) comes from, I had 6 TCH (prior to approval of Perjeta) and had Neulasta after each infusion as a matter of course. I have seen some oncologists start chemo without Neulasta and wait to see if it is needed - and some insurance will only cover it with demonstrated need - but not discontinued part way through randomly with TCHP, particularly with the prior impact on your counts.

  • carmstr835
    carmstr835 Member Posts: 388
    edited July 2017

    The 4% was what the nurse practitioner stated was the chance of me having an issue with my blood. I just now looked up Taxotere >30% Low WBC, Perjeta >30% Low WBC, and Carboplatin also >30% Low WBC. All 3 of these chemos have a greater than 30% of patients suffer from this side effect. The only chemo I am taking that did not have an issue with blood was herceptin. I have no idea what she based this decision on. This does cause me some serious concern and perhaps I do not want to be seen by the nurse practitioner in the future.

    I did not know about the Neupogen injections and will call them on Monday and request it. Will it work within a week? If I can get them to prescribe it on Monday the 31st, I will have 10 days to grow some neutrophils. I sure don't want a delay.

    It took me a long time to get my port surgery scheduled, I don't want any more pic lines, my left arm looks like a pin cushion. They can't use my right and shouldn't use my left. My Lymphedema therapist is very upset about them using my arms at all. The last 2 pic-lines have been leaking and most blood draws were missed lately. I need that port.

  • SpecialK
    SpecialK Member Posts: 16,486
    edited July 2017

    If you can start Neupogen asap I think you can get enough of a boost so you don't have a delay. Neupogen is similar to Neulasta but you can get it dailyduring the days beteeen infusions, up until the next one, but with Neulasta there has to be a couple of weeks before the next infusion. I think it is def worth pursuing so you don't have a scheduling issue. You will be happy to have a port - its a lot easier, especially since you receive Herceptin for such a long time.

  • Freya244117
    Freya244117 Member Posts: 603
    edited July 2017

    I am getting the neupogen shots, and they have made a huge difference. DH gives me the first one 24hrs after chemo, and then for the next 3 days. Since it is working so well, we will be cutting down to 3 injections instead of 4.

    Last week my neutrophils were 2.86, the highest in years!

  • carmstr835
    carmstr835 Member Posts: 388
    edited August 2017

    I went for another blood test today hopefully the neutrophils have risen a bit. I will know at 8AM. My issue is with my oncologist's office. I am wondering if I should find another oncologist. I know I am not a very trusting person, and I really feel I must have second opinions and I must research everything. It sure would be nice just to go in and let them do all the medical research and make the right decisions

    A bit of my background as to why I can't just trust them.

    1. Abnormal mammogram of right breast at a local hospital, call back was 2 weeks later.
    (most call backs are within days or hours of an abnormal result, this delayed my treatment for 2 full weeks.)

    2. At the call back, 2 weeks later, Local radiologist diagnosed breast cancer with a clinically palpated tumor, and ultrasound of tumor, a BiRad score of 5. and recommendation of needle core biopsy and breast surgeon appointment. I wanted a 2nd opinion to read my radiology reports before any surgeries or biopsy. That proved very difficult.
    (finally found a 2nd opinion radiological consult at another hospital, the result was suspicious area in the other breast, requesting ultrasound and biopsy of both breasts BiRads score at this radiologist's consult of 4C both breasts, had I not insisted, they never would have found the cancer in my left breast, it was a larger tumor than the right.

    3. After the biopsies,at the new medical center, about 2 hours out of town, the tumors were different, one was Her2+ and the other was Her2-. Both were Estrogen +, and one was Progesterone - and one was +. The KI-67 were quite different as well. The characteristics of both tumor surgery pathologies came back much different than either of the biopsies, I was on neoadjuvant hormone therapy and that inhibited the characteristics of both. However, that was never considered in the treatment options by my oncologist. He felt I did not need chemo. Oncotype score was 17 and 19. Mammaprint low. With not accurate info, and the left breast was never sent in, only the right. Her+ is not accurate, and extranodal is not accounted for either.
    (2nd opinion Dr. recommended chemo and my oncologist agreed to keep me happy. TC x4.

    4. 2nd opinion oncologist redid the pathology of the surgery and biopsies. Came to the conclusion I was Her2+, it was NOT a false positive in the previous report. He believes I have heterogenous tumors and need to be treated as Her2+. He personally contacted my oncologist and recommended herceptin and perjeta. Chemo was changed to TCHP x4 after 2 TC treatments.
    (without this 2nd opinion I never would have been treated with chemo, or have been treated for Her2+)

    5.After the change of chemo, I was seen by the nurse practitioner, not the Dr himself. She felt that with the change of chemo, it was no longer necessary to have the neulasta injection. I trusted her. Big mistake. I should have looked up the risk myself, she said 4% was the risk for neutropenia with these chemo drugs, but it is more like 79%. I got neutropenia. Big surprise.


    I had the blood report of July 26th faxed to my oncologist's office at 7AM and waited until about noon for them to call me and give me direction as to my low counts and a plan of action. They did not call, I called them after noon. I asked if they had gotten my blood report faxed to them. After checking, and seeing they received it and I was neutropenic. Remember, I called them, they did not call me. They informed me of all the precautions, no fruits or vegetables unless cooked well, and no cauliflower or broccoli at all, no rare meat. Only well cooked meat.. No hugging,kissing, touching or shaking hands, no crowded places and not to be around anyone sick. The typical precautions they warn you about anyways. They also said my chemo was on hold and so was my port surgery for next week unless my numbers rebounded. I was told to go for another CBC 72 hours before I went back for my next chemo. They said to go Aug 4, a friday. I was caught off guard and did not have any questions and had to process all this so I agreed and we hung up. The more I thought about it and after I posted here, it dawned on me that this was ridiculous for them to just discontinue my safety net (neulasta) protecting me from neutropenia and risking my surgery and chemo. I need chemo for my very survival, delaying it is not in my best interest and the 79% risk was very high I needed that boost to my neutrophils and WBC I did not get.

    I decided to go to a clinic and get a blood test today. I also sent an email to my oncologist this weekend (who is out of the office, he left a reply to contact the office) informing him I wanted to be proactive in warding off any delay to my treatment and also sent a portal message to my oncologists team with the same info. I asked for a prescription for neupogen. I got no results at all. I called them again on Monday at 3:00PM. I was met with a very unfriendly nurse. She claimed there is no way they will give me the neupogen. There are a million things they need to check, and it is not something I should be concerned about. I should just sit home and wait. I reminded her, if I just sat home and waited I would not know how my blood was until it was too late to do something. I want to be sure I do not miss my treatment and if the best chance was to find a way to get this injection, then I need to find a way to get it. She asked when I got my blood test, I said I just did it the results will be in tomorrow morning and if I need this drug, I need to make arrangements for a DR appointment now to get in. Their answer was to just chill and wait. I explained if I just chilled and waited and did what they told me to do, I still would not have had a blood test, and when I did (Aug 4th,) it would be too late to remedy the situation if my blood was still too low for chemo or surgery, she did not want to hear that and then I pretty much gave up. I told her not to worry, that I know they are very busy and I am sure there are other people much more important than I am and that I would not bother them again with such minor issues. I will just sit and wait and hope all goes well. I so much want to switch my oncologist. I really don't want to switch my care, Everyone else there is wonderful. I really do love that place, but the oncologist is the one I need to deal with more than anyone else.

    Anyone else switch their oncologist mid treatment? Is it possible to change and not have a delay? I need to trust my doctor and his nurses, and I do not.

  • Leatherette
    Leatherette Member Posts: 448
    edited August 2017

    I am TCH only, not getting neulasta, first infusion a week ago. I had a tiny cut on my thumb before I started chemo, and it is just now healing. No other issues as far as I can tell.Curious to see my prechemo cbc in two weeks.

  • IntegraGirl
    IntegraGirl Member Posts: 147
    edited August 2017

    Neulesta was recommended with the 4 rounds of docetaxol I just finished today. I refused it because I could not stand just one more shot. My option was an antibiotic for a week after treatment and an agreement if my blood work tanked, I'd reconsider Neulesta. My blood work has stayed well within normal ranges throughout and I have no regrets not going with the Neulesta

  • carmstr835
    carmstr835 Member Posts: 388
    edited August 2017

    Got my blood work back, it is improving a bit. Not sure it is enough to get me my chemo in 7 days without an intervention of neupogen. I asked again for this prescription, but they are still dragging their feet and said they will call me tomorrow and let me know the plan. Why are they taking a chance? What is the big deal? My insurance had no trouble paying for the neulasta each chemo, I can't imagine it would not cover this. They claim they need to check with the insurance company, well I asked for this on Saturday night, still they have not checked? Apparently, they believe it would be hard to find a pharmacy that carries it? Well, then I would assume they not wait any longer, if it must be ordered. Ahh, I think they have no intentions of ordering this medication and are just hoping my blood improves on it's own. If I miss my chemo and port surgery, I will not continue here. I gave them every opportunity to make this right.

    from Wednesday - Monday ( 5 days)

    Absolute Neutrophil went from 0.39 to 0.5 increased by .15

    Automated Neutrophil % 31.8% to 28.4% dropped 3.4%

    WBC 1.2 to 1.9 increased by .7

  • carmstr835
    carmstr835 Member Posts: 388
    edited August 2017

    Congratulations Intergragirl!

    I get to say that in 6 more weeks, I have 2 more cycles to go for this regime, then the HP for 14 more cycles, but I will be very happy to be done with the taxotere and carboplatin.

  • MollyW
    MollyW Member Posts: 9
    edited August 2017

    I had a similar situation although I am on a different chemo. After four rounds of AC, my white count and neutrophils pretty much dropped to zero (I even had Neulasta after every chemo). I got incredibly sick and needed oral and IV antibiotics. My doctor wanted my numbers to rebound on their own before starting Taxol. So I waited. My numbers never improved, and I got very sick again. I finally convinced the doctor to give me Neupogen shots after spending a month being neutropenic and delaying my treatment. I went from a 0 neutrophil count to an 11. This quickly leveled off to around 3. I was finally able to start on the Taxol.

    I also considered changing to a different doctor after this experience. After a frank discussion about my concerns, the doctor agreed to alter the plan for the Taxol treatments to include a Neupogen shot (I get the shot two days before chemo). I learned I need to be more assertive and if my doctor does not listen to my concerns and be proactive, then I will be finding a new doctor.

    Also thought I might mention that if your counts are really low it might take several Neopogen shots on successive days before your counts come up.

    Sorry for your frustrating experience. I hope you can get your counts up and get started with your treatment. Wishing you the best and keep us updated.

  • IntegraGirl
    IntegraGirl Member Posts: 147
    edited August 2017

    All the best carmstr835 as you go around the final bend in this part of your program. It is good to have this part behind me. I was pretty happy to walk out of that chemo suite yesterday and not look back. I didn't even take the time to ring the bell. Just done and out thank you very much. No more 8:45 Monday morning date with the blood lab to kick off treatment week and countdown is on for my freaking hair to grow back. Depending on eye lash status in a month, I might even indulge in extensions. I am so tired of looking like Gollum (Dobby the House Elf on a good day :))!

  • carmstr835
    carmstr835 Member Posts: 388
    edited August 2017

    Thanks Integragirl.

    update.

    Oncologists office called today, no neupogen injection will be ordered. They expect my chemo and surgery will be cancelled. I do, too. They want another blood test on Friday, but I have zero hope it will improve enough. They want it to be at least 1.5 for the abs neutrophils and it is only 0.54. I am very very upset that they won't do the neupogen. It is almost like they want to just wait and see. They are playing russian roulette with my life. I need a new oncologist. BTW he is not available at all, out of the office and there is a stand in oncologist that does not know me at all making my life decisions.

  • IntegraGirl
    IntegraGirl Member Posts: 147
    edited August 2017

    Holy crap that is awful! Is there anyone above the oncologists like the head of the departthat you can contact to get this sorted out? This is completely unacceptable!

  • carmstr835
    carmstr835 Member Posts: 388
    edited August 2017

    Update:

    Good news! I was finally able to get them to listen. I will be going to see my oncologist on Sunday now, and a lab draw, if the counts are still low they will give me the neupogen injections beginning on Sunday. That will give me 3 days to grow neutrophils and I won't miss my surgery port placement or my chemo, I'm so happy, thankful, and relieved!

  • IntegraGirl
    IntegraGirl Member Posts: 147
    edited August 2017

    Great news!!! What a relief! So sorry you had to go through all this unnecessary BS

  • carmstr835
    carmstr835 Member Posts: 388
    edited August 2017

    Intergra girl,

    Your replies, understanding, and concern sure meant a lot to me during this time, thank you!

  • MollyW
    MollyW Member Posts: 9
    edited August 2017

    Fantastic! What a relief to be able to move forward with treatment.

  • Gingernurse
    Gingernurse Member Posts: 27
    edited August 2017

    does anyone have vaginal bleeding from this? I had allergic reaction to the neulasta shot. Fever, chills, chest pain, HA nausea dizzy, high BP. I had a hysterectomy in March and I don't know why I'm bleeding. And my r kidney hurts so much but alll the labs exempt LFTs are WNL

  • carmstr835
    carmstr835 Member Posts: 388
    edited August 2017

    I only had bone pain from the neulasta and when I premedicate with claritin, I don't have any pain at all. I will know more tomorrow if I have a reaction to the neupogen, but I plan to premedicate for that too with claritin.

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