No Treatment or Choosing Only Specific Components of a Plan?

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  • VLH
    VLH Member Posts: 1,258
    edited June 2016

    ElaineTherese, my friend also mentioned how good it felt to know her tumor had shrunk to a point that it could no longer be felt. I agree that people are far more likely to post about problems than favorable experiences.

    BeachSusan, I'm sorry that you've faced so many health challenges. :-(

    I just sent a secure email to my surgeon telling her that I've given the matter a great deal of thought and have decided not to do the neoadjuvant therapy. I don't know if she can or will depart from the standard of care, but people who've struggled with chronic illnesses for many, many years can more easily understand a seemingly foolish choice. The odds may not be ever in my favor, but I'll hope for the best while preparing for the worst.

  • gracie22
    gracie22 Member Posts: 229
    edited June 2016

    Good Luck, VLH. Surgery is the biggest game-changer of all the treatments. If you choose to, you can do post-surgery chemo (or not!)

  • ElaineTherese
    ElaineTherese Member Posts: 3,328
    edited June 2016

    VLH,

    I understand where you're coming from. When I did chemo, I was part of the July 2014 chemo board. Women who had additional conditions did often struggle with the regimen, though they did make it through. If the pathology report from your operation cements your status as Stage 1, maybe you can limit your adjuvant treatment. If not, you can always get the Perjeta after surgery if your oncologist makes a good case for it to the insurance company. Don't look back! You've made your decision and it's time to move forward.

  • VLH
    VLH Member Posts: 1,258
    edited June 2016

    Thank you, Elaine. I feel like I've never recovered from the herniated disc / inflamed sacroiliac joint issue. The idea of dealing with the drug therapy for an extended period when my fatigue is already so severe is overwhelming. Needing to worry about making it to work adds to my concern. My part-time job is as an instructor with no available substitutes and no paid leave. With a regular job, you may be able to arrive at work two hours late or perhaps work from home on bad days, but if I'm not there, not only do I lose the income, but so does the facility where I teach. Fingers crossed that the surgeon will agree to my request.

    V.

  • VLH
    VLH Member Posts: 1,258
    edited June 2016

    As I feared, the surgeon refuses to perform my surgery if I don't comply with the recommended six months of neoadjuvant therapy. I understand that it's their job to save lives; however, I'm a fairly intelligent 61 year old adult with two degrees who has reviewed the comparative mortality rates, studied the benefits and possible complications of the proposed protocol and thoughtfully considered my personal circumstances. I'm extremely frustrated that I'm allowed no voice in my treatment as if I'm a child and "Doctor Knows Best."

    Plumbers just left (Woo Hoo! I got a new toilet because p**p still happens despite a cancer diagnosis!). I'll call in a while to see if the first surgeon takes a similar view. She's not with a university so perhaps she'll have more flexibility if I sign some kind of liability waiver.

    Gracie22, how did you find a surgeon willing to deviate from the typical standard of care? Did you have to interview multiple doctors?

  • gracie22
    gracie22 Member Posts: 229
    edited June 2016

    VLH, The surgeon (a breast cancer surgeon working out of a Johns Hopkins satellite location) did not insist on my seeing an oncologist prior to surgery, or that I agree to any particular treatment post surgery, so it was a nonissue for me. When i did see 2 oncs post surgery at the BS and the PS's insistence, one said that he would have recommended neoadjuvant had i seen him prior to surgery (typical for the size and type of tumor) and he went on to recommend the standard of care adjuvant care, as did the second onc. Both offered Herceptin solo when i declined chemo, but where very helpful and straightforward.

  • ElaineTherese
    ElaineTherese Member Posts: 3,328
    edited June 2016

    Ugh, VLH. That's too bad. Yes, check with the other surgeon -- I really don't see what's wrong with doing the surgery first and then evaluating further steps later. Other than the fact that it's easier to get Perjeta before rather than after surgery, there's no evidence that women who do neoadjuvant chemo/treatment have better outcomes than those who do adjuvant chemo/treatment. I've heard of other HER2+ patients getting the same option as that offered by Gracie's doctors -- Herceptin alone. That's a bit unusual but it's a possibility.

  • VLH
    VLH Member Posts: 1,258
    edited June 2016

    The other surgeon's medical assistant called and she will do surgery. I'm not 100% sure that she understood that I may not want to do chemo/ targeted therapy at all vs. the neoadjuvant/ adjuvant timing, but at least she seems to be considering my input instead of just looking to the standard of care without regard for my personal circumstances.

  • gracie22
    gracie22 Member Posts: 229
    edited June 2016

    VLH, agree with Elaine Therese...neoadjuvant has become popular relatively recently (mainly for HER2+ and/or big tumors); most patients still do chemo after surgery. I chatted online with a woman who avoided the neo because she felt that the "melting away" of a responsive tumor could mean more cancer cells being released into her system (as the tumor structure collapses, cells freed--hopefully killed by chemo, but who knows?) She felt more comfortable with the "intact" tumor being surgically removed, followed by chemo. I have no idea if her theory is borne out by science, but I thought it interesting. Patients should get to make the neo/non neo choice if there are not clear (survival/recurrence) benefits to either. There does not seem to be a whole lot of "settled science" where breast cancer is concerned. I am glad surgeon #2 is willing to work with you whether you chemo or not. You should be able to be truthful with whomever you choose. And if you are so-so about #2, seek another opinion. Take care!

  • dtad
    dtad Member Posts: 2,323
    edited June 2016

    Hi again. A few things. First nbnotes could it be that you were on prednisone during chemo and that helped the autoimmune issues? Beachsusan I get where you are coming from. When your QOL is poor before you are diagnosed with bc your treatment decisions are different. Also only 50 percent of women complete 5 years on anti hormone treatment due to SE. That is a fact. Not a great number. Also some of the joint issues from the aromatase inhibitors can be permanent so just trying could be problematic. That being said I think its great when women do well on them. I just wish there were more of them. Good luck to all....

  • Denise-G
    Denise-G Member Posts: 1,777
    edited June 2016

    I was with my 82 year old mom at her recent oncology appointment with our Physician's Assistant. We know her very well as myself, my sister and I all had breast cancer within the last 3 years. My mom, a Stage 1 survivor who had Lumpectomy only, tends to do things her own way, like stop the Aromatase Inhibitor drug on her own without consulting our MO.

    My mom said to our PA, "I'm glad Dr. Hayes (MO) isn't here today because, you know, he is the boss, and he might be mad since I quit the drug." Without skipping a beat, our PA said these words, "Actually, you are the boss. We are only here to try and persuade you to do what we have learned."

  • VLH
    VLH Member Posts: 1,258
    edited June 2016

    Thanks for the great discussion. I have an appointment next week with the oncology / BC surgeon, then meet the plastic surgeon the following day. To avoid any misunderstanding, I spoke with the BC's medical assistant and made sure the doctor understood that I may not pursue adjuvant chemo / targeted therapy. She confirmed that the doctor sees the TCHP protocol as the standard of care, but understands that my unique circumstances and personal decisions should be respected.

    Although frustrated at being denied surgery if I wouldn't agree to the TCHP, I understand that surgeon's perspective. If you haven't been tired and in pain 24/7 for almost half your life and ended up broke despite doing everything "right," you simply can't understand why someone wouldn't pursue every possible option that might increase survivability. When I finally got the spinal injection after six months of misery, I remember walking upright into my kitchen (no Rollator, crutches or cane ) and noticing how bright the world seemed (and how filthy my cupboards were!). It was as though I'd been occupying this awful, grey space. How can you explain that to someone who hasn't experienced it?

    I have a few good hours most days and schedule appointments accordingly. The surgeon sees someone with no obvious impairments and can't understand that a chronic invisible illness skews one's viewpoint. I would still recommend her and her team to people who want to maximize lifespan and won't want to deviate from the standard of care.

  • Pessa
    Pessa Member Posts: 519
    edited June 2016

    it is not illegal for the surgeon to refuse to do surgery. His legal obligation is to do what he feels is medically sound. If the patient does not agree the surgeon cannot be forced to do something that he feels is not in the patient's best interest. The patient is free to go elsewhere

  • ElaineTherese
    ElaineTherese Member Posts: 3,328
    edited June 2016

    Yes, "invisible disabilities" confuse a lot of people, including medical personnel. My sons have autism and look fairly normal (until you notice that they're scripting from Pixar movies). So, people expect them to behave "normally." In any case, let's hope that the pathology after surgery confirms that you are node-negative and Stage 1. At that point, you might feel more confident in pursuing minimal adjuvant treatment with no regrets. It's interesting that they've already got you scheduled to see the plastic surgeon. It's like they're assuming that reconstruction is a strong possibility. I should add that I have nothing against reconstruction, though I got a lumpectomy to avoid it. For many women, it helps restore their sense of dignity and addresses many of their concerns about their appearance. However, it can involve multiple surgeries, and one of the most common methods (tissue expanders and then implant) can be painful as the plastic surgeon adds more "fills" to the tissue expanders. Hoping for Stage 1!

  • gracie22
    gracie22 Member Posts: 229
    edited June 2016

    MarieB, that was my experience too; don't understand the surgeon's refusal since chemo is not their province. But I assume that all or most of those refusing to treat patients who decline recommended chemo are part of university hospitals or other institutions with specific treatment templates for various breast cancers, and they just don't want to deviate. I doubt it is illegal, but it is illogical; it's not as if any of the recommended chemos are anywhere near foolproof (most don't improve long-term odds by more than 20-25%) while surgery is usually helpful for most, regardless of whether they do chemo.

  • VLH
    VLH Member Posts: 1,258
    edited June 2016

    I think it's the surgeon's prerogative to not do the procedure since she disagrees with my decision. I recognize that the "standard of care" provides the best survivability numbers. Since I live near a major city, I have options. I can't imagine living in an area with limited services where I felt forced into a treatment plan that I didn't want. Anyway, I don't question that this surgeon firmly believes she's doing the right thing. I just don't think it's the right thing for me at this time. If cancer is found in my lymph nodes, I may still consider drug therapy.

  • VLH
    VLH Member Posts: 1,258
    edited June 2016

    ElaineTherese, the plastic surgeon is because I may get breast reduction in conjunction with the lumpectomy (currently an F / G cup). Thank you for the good wishes!

  • ElaineTherese
    ElaineTherese Member Posts: 3,328
    edited June 2016

    VLH! F/G cup! My back hurts just thinking about it.

  • VLH
    VLH Member Posts: 1,258
    edited June 2016

    Yup, I wore a D cup when I weighed 109 pounds. That was many years and many, many pounds ago. The girls used to draw a lot of male attention, but now they're literally a pain in the neck (and shoulders) and trying to kill me.

    I was told that having large breasts that have lost the battle with gravity may mean having a far larger surface area to radiate. On the other hand, breast reduction is a more complicated surgery than just a lumpectomy and sentinel node biopsy so I'll see what the surgeons say.

    What does scripting mean?

  • chef127
    chef127 Member Posts: 891
    edited June 2016

    VLH,

    My BC journey is(was) a lot like yours. I had a large tumor, 4.5cm, and very large breasts, DDD+maybe an F at 110#. Frankly, I think the sight of them scared the BS and MO more than the tumor. I went to 2 BS's and both recom'ed MX. Not what I wanted. One BS told me if I wanted to try a LX neo chemo to shrink the tumor was my only chance. (IF the tumor shrank, and it would make the surgery easier for 'HER'). I knew I did not want the chemo due to my invisible conditions (diabetes & MS) so neo was off the table for me. The MO stated my health was good on the report. I feel the chemo would do more harm than good. Anyway, the tumor was a fraction in size compared to all that breast tissue so a LX was doable. Make sense??

    I researched and found a BC Surgeon who uses co2 Laser for BC surgery. That's all he does and he successfully removed about 10cm+ and left my breast looking nice and a reduction on the other side. It was uncomplicated and easy. My DDD+ are now a D cup, still too big but they match.

    I'm almost 5 years out and doing well w/o chemo or HT, as far as the BC goes but I'm disabled due to my MS. I ain't dead yet! BC is now the least of my health issues.

    MO's are giving hercepton alone now for her2+. Find an MO who will respect your physical limitations. Don't let the med community dictate what your course of treatment is. You know YOU and it's your life and body.

    good luck with your journey.

    Maureen


  • ElaineTherese
    ElaineTherese Member Posts: 3,328
    edited June 2016

    I had a lumpectomy and ALND (all nodes removed); it really was a simple surgery. My SIL had reduction; she recovered pretty quickly from that but then again, she didn't have any pre-existing conditions. Scripting is repeating dialogue from TV, movies, video games, or other sources. For example, I'll tell Oliver that it's time for lunch. He'll repeat, "Its time for lunch, in a cup" (a line from WALL-E). In the pool yesterday, John was telling me, "There are no accidents" (a line from Kung-Fu-Panda. Needless to say, DH and I now know snippets of dialogue from most of the Disney/Pixar/Dreamworks animated films.

  • chef127
    chef127 Member Posts: 891
    edited June 2016

    Both my surgeries were uneventful despite my maladies. When I was considering MX the PS told me I was not a candidate for a flap type recon b/c of the MS. Cutting out muscle would throw my balance off even more so a uni mx with a TE & reduction, or a BMX and 2 TE's or just stay flat. Too many surgeries for me to cope and frankly boobless scared me even more. I spent my entire adult life well endowed and I never had a problem with it and I kinda liked my look except when I tried to fit in a swim suit. Vain? yes, but I did identify with my natural curves and they never got in my way or caused back pain. Trying to kill me? NO. If I were to recur, my only option will be a MX due to one time only radiation, and I still won't do it. I know, foolish.......but that's me.

    Elaine Therese, I love the story about your boys scripting. I find it endearing. My BFF has a 29 y/o son with autism and he did the same thing. when he started puberty and became sexually 'aware' he was very vocal and inappropriate. He is smart, handsome, and clever. His dad gave him playboy mags and he was reiterating what he read and saw. Naturally for him and any red blooded male. He is now on the right meds and has become a loving, joyful, man. A pleasure to be with. People he meets have no clue how his brain works and don't understand. It's hard on his mom, still. She is still trying to figure out what she did wrong instead of embracing her lovely son. You are blessed.

    Maureen

  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Member Posts: 1,376
    edited June 2016

    dtad -- nope, it had nothing to do with prednisone as I was on that regularly for the autoimmune. I've been NED since April 13 (originally diagnosed in July 12), and I have had no fatigue since ; so, it is over 3 years almost 4.

  • ChiSandy
    ChiSandy Member Posts: 12,133
    edited June 2016

    I wouldn’t mind being reduced to an F or G cup. After a huge weight loss 3 yrs ago (between knee replacements, to make rehab easier), I was a 36H or even 34HH (FF in UK sizes). I loosened up on my low-carb dieting after a few trips to Europe, NOLA and my bc diagnosis last fall. By the date of surgery I was a 38 I. Radiation fibrosis, letrozole & swelling brought that up to a 40 I. I’m back down to 38 I, and hoping to diet & exercise my way back down to a 38H despite letrozole. My joints just can’t handle the weight and I don’t want my stage 0 lymphedema progressing to stage 1. And the weight of my I cup breast pulled the SNB incision open (at least acc. to my surgeon’s partner) 3 wks post-op and caused my seroma to do a credible impression of Old Faithful. (It had to be sutured closed, and thank heavens it’s fully healed). My surgeon never brought up the question of reduction--only lx vs mx vs bmx. Perhaps because I was so eager to be done with surgery + rads in time to take a Dec. Mediterranean cruise, she never mentioned the possibility of additional surgery. (I do travel as much as my husband & I can--he nearly died last year after a botched colonoscopy perforated his bowel and then he was mismanaged into fluid overload to the brink of heart failure. Despite having largely retired from practicing law, I also take an annual continuing legal ed. trip to Europe, and I occasionally travel to other cities to perform in my “other life” as a performing singer/songwriter/guitarist).

  • chef127
    chef127 Member Posts: 891
    edited June 2016

    ChiSandy,

    The Old Faithful eruption (TOOO funny) happened to me a week after surgury. I never realized it was a seroma. I assumed the drain kinked and forced the build up of fluid out in a explosion. WOW. That's one way to get the drain out sooner. My sister also has large breasts 32 or 34 F/G?. and she's skinny @ 5'2". Why do breasts continue to grow well into adulthood long after puberty? Is it a high ki67? or is that protein only in BC cells? She started her period at 9 and developed large breasts at 11. It was devastating for her. Never developed BC tho. bitch, lol. I had a 4cm fibroadenoma since I was 20 and it morphed into CA at 56 or sooner. ?? 3 of my bf who were A cups ish ended up with C cups buy the time they were 45ish.

  • VLH
    VLH Member Posts: 1,258
    edited June 2016

    Hi, Ladies (and the Occasional Gentleman),

    After the warm welcome, I know I fell off the planet for a bit. As everyone here knows all too well, this process involves tons of research, soul searching and decision making, not to mention learning a new language.

    I saw the BC on Tuesday. I expected her to confirm that I understood the risk I was taking by foregoing the neoadjuvant therapy, but didn't realize that was apparently the purpose of the visit. She is very sweet and caring; however, it's difficult & emotionally wrenching to explain to someone who hasn't been there how years of chronic and acute illnesses, shattered dreams & financial challenges influence one's decision.

    I really liked the plastic surgeon I saw Wednesday. After discussing the pros and cons and given the condition of my breasts after losing 100 pounds, I've decided on a bilateral mastectomy with tissue expanders & implants. Unfortunately, the related minimum two hour weekly commute for fills in the 100 degree heat makes his location problematic. The BC's medical assistant is checking on another plastic surgeon with a satellite office much closer to me. Hopefully, surgery will be the second week in July. Thanks again for the input and support!

  • ElaineTherese
    ElaineTherese Member Posts: 3,328
    edited June 2016

    Hi VLH!

    Glad to hear that BC doc was sweet and caring. Hope your BMX and reconstruction go well. Many ladies sail through reconstruction, but it's more likely to produce complications than a BMX alone. A two hour weekly commute! Ugh. Yeah, I'd see if there was a more local option as well.

    The heat has been really ugly here, too. I've been going to the pool with one of my sons every day.

  • VLH
    VLH Member Posts: 1,258
    edited June 2016

    Talking about your sons' scripting is fascinating, ElaineTherese. Although I know it was fictionalized, I think I recall something similar in "Rain Man." The movie about how differently Temple Grandin sees the world was fascinating to me. I'm afraid that I lack the requisite patience to parent any child, let alone one with the challenges autism must present.

    ChiSandy, YIKES! The weight of the breast pulling your SNB incision open is another reason why I've been reluctant to consider a simple lumpectomy. I had no breast pain whatsoever before my core needle biopsy, but now have little twinges along the path of the needle into the tumor every time I take my bra off and things head south so I'm wearing a sports bra until bedtime. My father had a similar digestive medical error that left him (and my mom as caregiver) with an ostomy bag for his final months of life. :-( I hope you enjoyed your vacation. I would so love to walk on an ocean beach again.

    Chef127, I would have never thought about the surgery affecting your balance. I spoke with the plastic surgeon about being buxom since 9th grade and how I was concerned that I would look very unbalanced with a smaller bust now that I have a large tummy and lots of junk in the trunk. He said that he could fit me with a D cup implant, which I think would look quite proportionate on me.

    Did you all ask to see photos of your plastic surgeon's work? I know vanity shouldn't be our primary concern and this isn't like shopping for a new outfit, but if I have to go through all this, it would be nice to have my bust line back up where it was in my younger days. The more conveniently located plastic surgeon has only a single example of reconstruction pictured on his website. One thing I plan to ask him is how many reconstructions he does in a typical year.


  • ElaineTherese
    ElaineTherese Member Posts: 3,328
    edited June 2016

    Alas, my sons won't even approach the accomplishments of Temple Grandin. We're hoping that they can get jobs (one of my sons loves to mow the lawn), but they're not college material, never mind grad school....

    The "more convenient" PS may have more pictures of reconstruction in his office. It may not be easy for him to secure the permission of his patients to post their reconstruction pictures online. Yes, ask how many recons he does. Two good threads about TE reconstruction on BCO.org are: TEs A Beginner's Primer (for the novice to TEs) and TE TROUBLE (for women who have problems). I'd read the Beginner's Primer first; if you read too much about problems with TEs, it can get depressing. (I feel the same way about Life on Aromasin -- many of the participants are having problems with the drug).

  • VLH
    VLH Member Posts: 1,258
    edited June 2016

    You must worry about your sons' futures. :-( I think someone like Temple Grandin is truly exceptional in being able to communicate the perspective of an autistic person to the rest of us.

    I have taken a look at some of the TE messages. We tend to be more vocal about problems than successes so I read the posts from that perspective. I granted permission to the plastic surgeon to share my photos if I go with him for surgery provided that my face isn't shown. I don't have any distinctive traits, like an unusual birthmark, that would identify me and I know that seeing the photos is helpful for me as a prospective patient. There's an abundance of porn on the Internet so I don't think anyone would get their jollies looking at my saggy, senior bosom, but that's not really a deterrent for me.

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