POLITICAL JUNKIES

hydranne, I'm glad you found the map as interesting as I did. I would never want to try to defend anyone denying anyone the right to vote. My linking the map is not an excuse or defense, just to note that voter fraud, like the anecdotal stories you provide, show us that individuals have used their personal opinions and actions to the detriment of others on either side of the argument. When broad absolutes like "never" or "always," "all" or "no one" are applied to whole political parties, without acknowledging individual people with various opinions make up those parties, I believe we fail ourselves. We have personal opinions and I, for one, don't want others to lump me into some generalized label. Since the majority of those of us posting here appear to be of a more liberal opinion, it saddens me how often I see the broad castigating of the "GOP" on this thread instead of recognizing there are individuals in the GOP who might deserve that criticism, but please don't blame a whole party for the work of a few. I've seen no evidence that the GOP wrote "draconian voter ID laws" but I'm sure some who identify themselves as part of the GOP did. I make no bones about it--I protest broad labels!!! Peace!!

How exactly would voter fraud be detected?


I suspect the numbers are low because no one is really looking for it, and individual cases are hard to find. My parents, who lived in the U.S. for decades on green cards, were honest and never voted. But if they had, would anyone have caught them? Given their lengthy permanent residency, no one would have guessed that they weren't citizens and weren't eligible to vote.


There are over 20 million non-citizens living in the U.S., either legally and illegally; we know that there are over 11 million illegal immigrants and the most recent data I can find indicates that there are over 13 million legal permanent residents who are not citizens. I don't know the number legal temporary residents. None of these 20+ million ever decide to vote? Really? Even if the vast majority are honest and only a fraction of a percent decide to vote illegally, we'd still be talking tens if not hundreds of thousands of people.


I don't think that there is any question that there is a much greater amount of voter fraud than anyone admits to or knows about. To me it's about as close to a no-brainer as you can come. Of course some people who are not eligible to vote choose to vote anyway. It's human nature; some people will try to scam the system or get away with something they aren't supposed to do. Everyone isn't honest. The fact that the official reports only show a few hundred cases of voter fraud only proves to me that no one is really looking.

Does this ever affect the election results? Probably not, and maybe that's why it doesn't matter to anyone.

I’ve seen statistics similar to that map, and they all mention “voter irregularities,” lumping the few invalid attempts to vote in with the exponentially greater instances of incorrect deletions from the voter rolls and election-judges and pollwatchers incorrectly preventing legitimate voters from casting their ballots. And in those few attempts to vote improperly? In nearly every instance, they were attempts which were detected and thwarted before ballots could be cast, therefore no fraud was committed. And it didn’t take photo ID to catch these would-be improper voters, either. I reiterate that implementing a method that disenfranchises likely opposition voters is like torching a house as a method of pest control.

Maltese, there were ACTUAL DEATH THREATS against Colorado state convention delegates after Trump got shut out, as well as to several Indiana Republicans running as uncommitted delegates in that state’s upcoming primary. It was breaking news on MSNBC, CNN, ABC and the NYTimes. Understandably, the media outlets supporting Trump have been silent, so if that’s where you’ve been getting your “news” I can see why you don’t believe it.

Update: Sanders has finally started to ask his supporters to start contributing to down-ticket Dem. primary candidates (such as former NYC mayoral candidate Zephyr Teachout who is running for Congress) who share his and presumably their values. But he hasn’t contributed to the party itself and it isn’t clear if he will should he get the nomination.

Ceanna, if you don’t believe that the GOP itself--in the form of Republican-led state governments--is behind the trend toward draconian voter ID laws, I invite you to check out “ALEC,” the acronym for the PAC/think-tank American Legislative Exchange Council. Its own website boasts that it is "a partnership between business and state legislators." Other sites have exposed what that seemingly innocuous statement really means. (Google it, Wikipedia, etc,). ALEC is a clearinghouse that drafts conservative-and-corporate-friendly legislation for Republican-led state legislatures to introduce and enact (with GOP Governors to sign). Many state legislators haven’t even bothered to paraphrase, submitting these bills verbatim--which has occurred in more than one state. (WI, OH, and MI are among the most blatant examples). Besides voter-ID laws, the bills include reduction or elimination of voting hours and polling places, so-called “right-to-work” laws designed to destroy unions and bills severely restricting or even eliminating collective bargaining. (It is not clear whether ALEC is behind drastic anti-abortion legislation as well, but the language of several states’ bills in this regard is strikingly similar).

I just saw that Microsoft and I think Google are claiming they pay equal wages for men and woman. I feel like I missed the boat totally. I was at a definite disadvantage in the 1970's as a female engineer. Missed out of family leave when pregnant and retired before achieving equal status to my male counterparts. I love hearing about progress. Black men achieved the right to vote before women. One of my female colleagues was very upset about workplace injustice. She thought it was because she was black, I said to her; did you ever consider it was because you are female? Wow. She is still working there and apparently gaining some ground. Good for her.

kayb, your concerns about election problems were addressed in the Carter/Baker Commission on Federal Election Reform I had previously described. Since I had a terrible time posting the link originally to that report, I'm not going to try to post it again but it is several pages back if you want to check it out. I tried to describe the broader scope of the report, but other responses to my posting have mainly focused on objections to the photo ID concept--hence I responded to their concerns. I agree with you that those problems deserve a solution and imho think that a federal one time voter registration and database would eliminate some of those problems.

This is the fastest moving thread on this site. I have to say, the one thing that makes me nutty is voter apathy. It sure as hell is not evident from this thread which is very comforting. As Chi-Sandy's parents taught her. If you don't partake in the process afforded to you, don't complain. I used to hand out voter registration cards to anyone who wanted them (I worked with welfare to work program which consisted of mostly single Moms) and explained to them that if they did not vote for the candidate of their choice, they were giving away what little power they had to change things. Many of them rolled their eyes but a few listened intently and politely took the cards. Not sure they mailed them of course, but hopefully a few of them voted.

This is what makes America great. Discourse like this can't happen in every country. Thankfully, our men and women in the armed forces make sure that we have this right and have sacrificed a lot to do so. For this, I am very grateful. I still wish that we did not have to spend one red cent on war or military anything. I know that is just a dream and not really likely to be seen in my lifetime but isn't America built on dreams and hard work?

I feel that feeding our children healthy food, making sure our planet is in pristine condition for generations to come and excellent health care are the places I would like to see my money spent.

Edit: I wanted to weigh in for a moment on voter registration fraud. I have a feeling that there really is very little of it to make a difference. A local non-profit did an anonymous survey a while back asking women who received welfare if they every lied about anything to get that check. Some of them said they lied about the father of the child still being in the home, some had under the table jobs and a few other things but without fail, the one thing very very few lied about was the one thing that would get them an automatic six month extension. That was whether they were a victim of domestic violence. I think that the same thing applies to illegal voting. Most people, especially illegal aliens, would not take that chance.

As someone viewing from outside the borders of the US, I have to respectfully disagree about the POTUS being a "director and appointer", suersis, even though I understand what you mean, given the constitution and system of gov't in the US.....he/she is also, to the rest of the world, the representative of the American people and American values. The term "ugly American", usually applied to tourists in foreign countries, would take on a WHOLE new life outside the US, if Trump made it all the way to the White House.

I'm sure there are active Trump/Cruz threads on BCO.....I just have no interest in seeking them out.

editted to add: Sorry Maltese, we must have been typing at the same time. Why would posting on this thread get someone banned from BCO??? As much as I don't agree with your point of view, you certainly have the right to share it!

Now that is something I think we could all agree on Ceanna! Super Pacs have no place in this process imho. The money that rolls out of these is just obscene and can truly skew what our politicians are trying to accomplish. If one gets funding then the other gets pushed out so eventually I think most of our elected officials succumb to this cash cow. Sad but true. Money talks on the Hill and unless it is outlawed, special interests that have the most clout are those that have the most $$.

I'd love to read any other political,commentary posted on this forum if you'd like to post a link

Kay, I was commenting on voter fraud and voter ID because those were the topics already in discussion here.

To your point, I agree that there are many other issues related to voting and elections. I read a Harvard Kennedy School of Government paper a few days ago that detailed a long list of problems with recent U.S. elections, such as polling machine breakdowns, voting website disruptions, electronic votes being recorded erroneously, and on and on. Most often these types of problems are unintentional, but certainly an election can be stolen by manipulating the voting process. Another way to affect election results, one that is very common in the U.S., is gerrymandering. The paper I read referenced the Electoral Integrity Project, which is a global initiative studying how and why elections fail. For the years 2012-2015 they ranked 139 countries on a 100-point Perception of Electoral Integrity (PEI) index, as assessed by over 2000 election experts. The U.S. PEI score was 62, ranking 47th out of the 139 countries. No country is perfect - Denmark and Finland had the highest score, at 86. Canada had a score of 75, ranking 18th in the world. And yet Canada has strict voter ID requirements... hmmm. ;-) Perceptions of Electoral Integrity 2012-2015 by Region

nihahi, you asked "Why would posting on this thread get someone banned from BCO???" As one of the people here with the longest history, I can tell you that this is what's happened in the past. During previous presidential elections there has been a very active political thread, with many participants representing both sides, and a few of us in the middle (that's where I'd put myself). Let's just say that the discussion in these threads was very lively. At times someone from one side or the other would get upset at something posted by someone from the other side - there were some pretty brutal words exchanged and some pretty vicious memes posted. As a result, people were banned from the board, and the thread was shut down and taken off the board. The feeling at the time was that those who represented the right point of view received more severe penalties than those on the left who had posted similar words or memes. After some time, the individual right and left threads started up and remain active today. In scanning those threads, I do find it interesting that the posts in the right thread mostly talk about the Republican candidates, and things going on in the GOP nomination process, while many of the posts in the left thread are links to articles that put down Republicans, or include insulting memes directed at the Republican candidates or Republican supporters.

Anyway, all that to say that everyone posting here should be careful to keep things kind and polite and to stay away from the insults.

Edited for grammatical errors only

I wonder if Mary (3-16-2011), who started this thread and never posts, knows how much pleasure she's brought to everyone posting as well as--I suspect--quite a few lurkers. Mary, you did something really good! I think so many of us very much appreciate the distraction!

I also believe that PACs should be outlawed, or at least not permitted to funnel money to candidates or parties. No more “swift-boating." I'm all for donation limits, and would truly appreciate ending the current system of campaign donations, and eliminating the current optional system of accepting or declining Federal matching funds--replacing it with wholly-gov't-funded elections. It would make it more feasible for the less-affluent to run for public offices--that it can take over a million dollars these days to run a Congressional, state legislature or even Aldermanic campaign is just plain outrageous.

That might give the conservative SCOTUS justices apoplexy, as they view donations as “speech" and corporations as “persons" entitled to First Amendment rights; but it would also shorten these protracted multi-year campaign cycles and force candidates to spend their allotments more wisely--and the number of outrageous negative ads would likely also be reduced.

Canada and the UK have far shorter campaign seasons, and their citizens don't seem to be negatively impacted.

As to gerrymandering, though it's most recently been employed primarily by Republican state legislators, both parties have been historically guilty of redistricting in order to maximize the number of voters of their party or minimize the number of opposition-party voters and minorities. The boundaries of these districts can be so convoluted and illogical that they resemble snakes or salamanders--leading to the term “gerrymandering" because the earliest master of this practice back in the 19th century was one Elbridge Gerry. But it also points out the importance of off-year elections, because not only do they determine the composition of the state legislatures that redraw these boundaries--the censuses producing the data on which redistricting is based fall 50% of the time during midterm election years. The most recent redistricting, in 2011, was based on the 2010 census--and the composition of the state legislatures that redrew these boundaries was heavily influenced by the Tea Party movement that developed during 2009 and 2010. The Supreme Court has been loath to disallow redistricting, even if clearly intended to manipulate the political-party composition of districts, because redrawing boundaries is the prerogative of the prevailing party in each state legislature. Only gerrymandering designed along racial lines has been given greater judicial scrutiny, and the burden of proof on the challengers to show specific intent to disenfranchise an ethnic group is extremely difficult to meet. The recent SCOTUS gutting of protective provisions of the Voting Rights Act certainly doesn't help matters.

This is why downticket races---and off-year and midterm elections--matter; and more persuasion needs to be done to maintain turnout of voters who were highly motivated by their favorite Presidential candidates. It's especially frustrating that so many of those who turned out to support Obama in 2008 and 2012 sat on their hands and uttered a big collective “meh" in 2010 and 2014.

Rain, Mary's mom passed away and she has posted to let us know in the bone thread. I am sure she will be back. My heart goes out to her.

Carol

Though I do not post on this thread...do "lurk" quite often and just want to share that our very own ChiSandy will be performing a benefit concert in Hickory, NC on May 22, at American Honor Alehouse to benefit Healing Touch- a non profit group who gives breast cancer patients 6 visits to their medical spa for facials and/or massages to help them feel as well as possible during treatment.

I am VERY excited to be attending and am hoping to get as many BC.org gals as possible to meet face to face and have time together. We can get a group room rate if we have enough folks so please look at your calendars and let's make a plan. Would just love to meet you all and have time together!

Mary, I am so sorry about your mom. Sending good thoughts and a hug your way.