Considering Going the Opposite Way with Supplements

I stopped everything and now only take a multi-vitamin, calcium with vitamin D (where I live you anyway, you can not get enough vitamin D through sunlight alone), and a low dose daily aspirin. I decided that messing around with anything else was potentially playing with fire. I try to eat better, keep the weight in the normal range, and I exercise like crazy (including yoga which along with strengthening the core & balance is also a great way to manage stress).

I'm in similar situation with you regarding weight & a sedentary lifestyle. And I agree with you about the supplement situation. It is still so very confusing to me I just throw my hands up in the air.

I found out 2 years ago my Vit D level was in the dirt (7), so I've been taking prescription strength Vit D every week (until 8 months ago started taking it twice a week). I just had my level checked and it finally went a tad over normal. It's taken 2 years.

I was thinking about the Mediterranean diet as well. I know nothing is perfect, but I have to get rid of this abdominal adipose tissue toot sweet. The other thing is I sit at a computer 8-10 hrs a day. I know in my head I have to get up and move, I just wish I loved exercise like chocolate or shopping, where just the thought of it made me think, "I'm all in, can't stop me now - I've gotta go exercise!!" And like a mad woman I'd be flying out the door to tearing up the street like the road runner.

Wish me luck! Patty

Oklabecca, what you say about supplements makes sense to me. Real food (unprocessed, without additives) should have what we need in the right quantities, and work in synergy. With supplements, it seems to me, it would be too easy to get things out of balance or get too much of something, and have unintended consequences. The exception I make is for the vitamin D3 my onc recommends, because low D is a bc risk, and some of us can't safely get enough sun for our bodies to make all we need. I have learned a lot from http://foodforbreastcancer.com/

I think your new healthy diet, exercise, and de-stressing will be so much better than adding supplements to the old ways. I'm sure you will be healthier and feel better. Make sure your sleeping room is dark, for natural melatonin production.

You posted this on the alternative board where many of us, including myself, do take supplements and believe they are beneficial to our health. I have no intentions of not taking mine, LOL. However, as you noted supplements are not a substitute for a healthy lifestyle and diet. Maintaining a healthy weight and exercising regularly are probably the most important things we can do to prevent a recurrence of BC, whether or not we choose to take supplements.

In regards to diet. I've found a Paleo diet (low carb and relatively high fat-although only certain types of fats are permitted) to be the best diet for me and one I can stay on. No diet works if you can't stay on it. BTW, the idea that fats cause heart disease or cause people to be fat has pretty much been debunked. I don't worry about fats, it is the carbs and sugars that will do us in. After following a Paleo diet for 2+ years, my lipid and good/bad cholesterol levels have improved and I'm 20+ pounds lighter (I lost the weight in the first 6 months).

Nothing, not even Tamoxifen, which has been studied extensively and shown to be effective in preventing BC in women at high risk, prevents ALL breast cancers. Expecting supplements or vitamins to do that is not very realistic in my opinion. Your diagnosis is DCIS, maybe you would have been diagnosed with IDC if it weren't for those supplements. No one knows.

Anyway, I'm not upset. Lots of people who post on the alternative board actually have little of no use for alternatives, so I wanted to post as someone who does believe supplements and vitamins can make a positive difference in our lives and prognosis. Ultimately, you of course are the one who has to decide whether or not to use these.

Like many of us diagnosed w BC, I too looked upon it as a chance to "unpack my whole life." In my case, it lead to me taking more supplements, getting more exercise and adopting a clean lifestyle (not only a clean diet, I'd been eating Paleo for several months prior to BC dx) that included getting rid of chemical laden cleaning products and beauty supplies. Today, I'm probably in better shape than I've been since I was in my 20s (and I'm 52). Too bad it took BC to get me motivated, but this diagnosis truly was a wake-up call for me to make positive changes.

When I was diagnosed, two different doctors at two different cancer centers (UT and Vanderbilt) based on my core biopsy and MRI results told me I had a small tumor surrounded by DCIS-one even claimed to know that it was cribiform type DCIS. Due to this they removed a large chunk of my breast to get not only the tiny (7 mm) tumor but also the DCIS that supposedly surrounded it. Final pathology showed no DCIS in the tissue removed, only the small tumor. Did the supplements and changes I made in my life ( supplements, exercise, meditation, tossing chemical laden body products) between diagnosis and surgery (2 and 1/2 months) clean up that DCIS or did both the cancer centers misdiagnosis my condition? I don't suppose we will ever know, but it is interesting to think about.

If you are interested in the supplements many of us are taking and why, there are several threads here devoted to that topic.

I take many supplements that I believe are beneficial to me: fish oil, magnesium, turmeric, milk thistle, CoQ10, DIM, kelp, flaxseed (ground with breakfast each day) D3, selenium, calcium, vitamin C, melatonin, 3 low dose aspirin (for cancer prevention and pain in my hip from a torn something), B12 (time release, but that is because I have pernicious anemia, nothing to do w BC). Some people think some of these might be harmful, and probably wouldn't all pass your " do no harm test". I started taking tamoxifen awhile back too and that definitely does not pass the no harm test and that's the stuff my oncologist wants me to take! Basically, I take things I believe have potential benefits that outweigh the potential risks, very few things in life are totally 100% proven to be risk free-although I'm pretty sure the tamoxifen is the riskiest thing I take, LOL.

But sticking to your criteria, I do think eating a good and CLEAN diet to loose weight or maintain a healthy weight is totally risk free and potentially very beneficial. That means real food without chemicals, additives and/or preservatives, meats from animals that aren't treated with hormones and antibiotics, ditto for dairy if you continue to eat that. I also avoid GMOs, buy organic as often as is possible and practical. Some people believe all these chemicals and hormones in our food are harmless. I'm not convinced and eating clean is certainly not going to hurt you. The same goes for cleaning up your home and body/beauty care products. It won't hurt to get rid of the crap that's full of chemicals.

Exercise too isa pretty much no harm kind of thing unless you go crazy, LOL. A good diet and exercise are not only helpful in preventing BC but for all kinds other reasons.

Get your D3 levels checked and supplement if/as needed. There does seem to be a link between low D3 and BC and there is definitely a link between low D3 osteoporosis. If you are low supplementing makes sense. If not, don't bother. It's a simple blood test, there is no reason to guess about whether or not your D3 levels are good or not.

Get your thyroid levels checked. There also seems to be link between thyroid problems and BC (and weight problems). Better to rule this out as a problem than have it and not know about it.

I too, believe stress is a factor that should be managed for optimal health as is practicing forgiveness. I've found several guided meditations on youtube that I like. We often go crazy trying to figure out which meds and supplements to take and forget to simply nurture ourselves. You are on the right path with those thoughts. These things may or may not help in terms of BC, but they are vitally important in terms of enjoying life. Reducing and managing stress is a harmless activity.

I'm very, very sure kelp (or eating plenty of sea veggies-but I don't like them) supplements are safe. Ditto for melatonin, but if you don't want to take it be sure to sleep in a completely dark room and for regular periods of time. Get your sleep cycles in a good pattern and you will feel better and maybe prevent BC.

A good probiotic is harmless and may be helpful. I definitely feel better when I take mine.

Many people are sensitive to gluten and don't even know it. Removing gluten from your diet can make a big difference in gut health-and being Paleo I believe gut health is very, very important in preventing disease. However, I won't try to convince you. Still, removing gluten from your diet and seeing if it makes a difference in how you feel is a harmless experiment.

The neurotologist settled on “atypical Meniere's" (“atypical" because I didn't get dizziness, nausea, or vertigo--just hearing pitches 1/4 tone differently between L & R ears and a slight feeling of ear fullness), as a diagnosis of exclusion: he couldn't find any identifiable arteriovenous defects or brain tumors that could explain my symptoms. I did cut way back on sodium, and that did help (I still watch my sodium intake 12 yrs later).

As to gluten, I am skeptical. Only 1% of people have celiac disease. Yet there are aisles of gluten-free products and increasing menu options way out of proportion to the numbers of people who have an actual medical need to avoid gluten. Those who claim to be sensitive to gluten and feel better when giving it up most likely have an intolerance or even allergy to wheat. They feel better because they have eliminated a source of refined carbohydrate that turns to sugar, and have consequently reduced inflammation and moderated their insulin release. (However, bear in mind that “gluten-free" products often replace wheat and other proteinaceous grains with much more highly refined high-glycemic substitutes like rice and potato starch, which are far worse for people who are avoiding gluten because they mistakenly believe doing so is healthful. There is no reason to give up gluten just because of a fear that it's bad for you--there are simple tests for celiac disease. In fact, giving up gluten before getting tested can skew your test results.

There was a nurse's study that found that recurrence rate does seem to decrease with 3-5 hours per week of regular exercise.

http://jama.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid...

I make sure I get at least that every week. And get my Vit D levels checked (my MO actually does it for me) once a year, trying to stay at the high end of normal.

I take supplements, but mostly for mood control (5-HTP/theanine), Vit C and Vit D drops along with a full-dose aspirin since I'm not a "bleeder".

Interesting website on Vit D levels and what they mean, but I haven't vetted it closely to see if there's other research that supports the claims found here.

http://www.vitamindcouncil.org/further-topics/i-te...

Claire

This tread raises an interesting issue: Which is alternative--supplements or no supplements? Doctors seem pretty ho-hum about supplements, while all those consumer-oriented publications and programs lead us to assume these products are keys to health and longevity. So, considering the general belief (mine, anyway) that supplements are great tools that target our physical and medical lacks and needs, isn't avoiding them at least kind of alternative?

Most consumer-directed literature promotes supplements, as do the ads they print. Mostly, the articles promote these products (whether manufactured or natural) as immunity boosters, protective against cancer, heart disease, and all the ailments and annoyances of aging. Similarly, fashion magazines' editorial sections and ads promote the latest shoe or silhouette. Fashion magazines are by definition product-driven. Without the designer, the manufacturer, and the promoter, they would have no grist for their mills.

I cannot help but wonder whether all the noise about supplements is simply product-driven, with (as someone mentioned above) all the publications and discussions simply repeating the very same unproven information and elderly research.

I suspect these supplements do indeed help fend off cancer, or at least delay its onset. Now that I've had (possibly still have) breast cancer, and listened to the RO's recommendation of nixing antioxidants during treatment, I'm more interested in starving any holdout bc cells than superstarting my general health. My onc recommends vitamin D, weight loss, and 30 minutes of exercise/day, with the focus on weight loss. A shrink I had years ago convinced me that stress is the root of all evil, especially medical evils. I was then recently divorced, wrangling three unruly boys, had an absolutely horrid job with a particularly horrid boss, had just been diagnosed with Meniere's (vicious vertigo), allergies, and a few other stress-related conditions, none of which went away until I left the job, left Long Island, and took up meditation.

After all the medically indicated treatments, does protection against recurrence really just comes down to a balanced diet of real foods, healthy weight, exercise, vitamin D, stress reduction, and luck, together or separately offering moderate protection against recurrence?

As a Paleo eater, I obviously do not believe grains are good for us, LOL, so gluten is so not a part of my life. This said one might be sensitive to gluten w/out having full blown Celiac disease-sort of like some people are very lactose intolerant, others only mildly or moderately so. Removing gluten from one's diet for a short period of time is one easy way to determine if you feel better w/out it in your diet. This is not a recommendation to replace grains with super processed "gluten free products." Paleo nutritional theory aside, almost all soy and corn produced in the United States is GMO modified so they can be and are sprayed with tons of the herbicide Roundup. This alone would be enough to cause me to avoid products with corn/soy listed as ingredients. Not much point in buying organic veggies and then eating grains sprayed with tons of chemicals. Most pre-made bread and grain products also tend to have sugar . Pastas are often fortified with iron and folic acid-two things given my history of BC I want to avoid in supplement/fortified form.

While there is not YET any research to indicate Vitamin D protects against a recurrence, keeping your levels in the good range is protective of one's bones and no one wants osteoporosis. Possible protection again a BC recurrence is a bonus IMO.

What is your opinion of CoQ10? I take it, so I do believe it is beneficial. There was a small study done showing high levels might be connected to postmenopausal BC and several small studies showing low levels to be connected to BC. I don't think one small study negates all previous studies, but as far as the 100% no harm thing goes, there are certainly still questions about its use. It is an antioxidant and I believe antioxidants are important.

I used fish oil and turmeric for their anti-inflammatory properties. An connection between inflammation and cancer seems to exist.

I take DIM and flaxseed to modulate estrogens. Flaxseed is also a very good source of fiber. Not everyone agrees these are good for people w ER+ disease, but based on my own research, I do.

Milk thistle for liver support-important in ridding the body of toxins. Not sure why it would help your nails, although I do have very nice nails these days but I've attributed that to a generally healthy diet.

I take kelp daily for iodine. With a BC dx, if I didn't have Hashimoto's, I would take supplemental iodine in larger quantities. There are some studies linking iodine shortage with BC , but with Hashimoto's I'm afraid to supplement too much. A pissy thyriod can be a very nasty thing!

Magnesium is one of the few supplements my OC has weighed in on and enthusiastically approved (along with the D3 and aspirin). Since I started taking Tamoxifen, which seemed to make me constipated, I've increased my magnesium from once a day to twice a day. This seems to have done the trick.

Selenium is a mineral many women with BC seem to be lacking.

Calcium and vitamin C are things I've taken for years/nothing really to do with BC, just general health.

Exercise is something I've wrestled (figuratively) with as well. Prior to getting a BC dx I was a dedicated couch potato, avoiding exercise in pretty much any form. I much prefer a good book, but the evidence supporting exercise to help prevent a BC recurrence is IMO pretty overwhelming so I'm doing it. I think the key to this is finding a form of physical activity you really like. For me it has been walking (when it is nice) and daily yoga practice. I had an exercise bike and a cross-trainer, I hated both and found them most useful for hanging clothes on. I tried pilates classes-close but they just didn't do it for me. I took a few yoga classes at a studio and I really, really liked them but going daily to classes doesn't work for me, so I bought a couple of CDs that I work out at home with and take a class about once a month to check my forms. I also make an effort to do things like take the stairs rather than the elevator, park in the far corner of the parking lot when shopping so I have to walk a ways-little things like that add up when done regularly. Just keep trying different forms of exercise until you find something you actually enjoy-looking forward to your daily exercise rather than dreading it makes it far more likely that you will actually do it. These days, I feel bad if I miss my yoga workout for any reason.

Two books geared toward BC survivors and that I love for their extensive discussion of stress, mental health, the importance of practicing forgiveness are Breast Cancer: 50 Essential Things You Can Do by Greg Anderson and A Holistic Approach to Breast Cancer by Christina Grant. I also like Dr. David Servan-Schreiber's Anti Cancer: A New Way of Life which contains lots of good dietary, mental health and exercise info.

In the end, whether you supplement or not, supplements are I think a pretty small part of the puzzle-something we probably worry about more than we should and if their use is stressing you out, avoiding them may indeed be the best thing for you. A clean, natural, whole food diet and exercise along with stress reduction are probably more important.

Just adding, green tea. There seems to be some evidence it is effective in preventing BC and it certainly won't hurt you. Not sure I consider it a supplement though, just something I try to drink more of these days. I sweeten mine w organic pure stevia. Ditto for lots of good veggies like brocolli, cabbage and brussels sprouts.

One thing I've learned about supplements is that you're only as healthy as the nutrients you absorb, and that goes for those in food as well. Another thing that I've learned, just in this last year, is that those who are obese have different gut bacteria from those of normal weight and these wrong bacteria can keep you from absorbing the nutrients you take in, which leads to a vicious cycle of eating more to get what you need. So you could be eating the healthiest diet on the planet but if you can't absorb nutrients then it isn't doing you much good--I don't think the supps hurt you but they may not have been helping due to that.

I went on an extended fast this past summer--21 days of nothing but water and herbal tea--and I did a lot of research on it before jumping in. I learned that a fast can change your gut biome very quickly and help you to absorb nutrients better. Because of that I did drop all supps for the duration of the fast and for awhile after as well. During the fast I also took some bentonite detox clay liquid and then hit the probiotics and prebiotic fiber pretty hard after the fast. Before the fast my vitamin D level was barely moving up but after it went up more quickly with a lower dose so I do think it helped.

For anyone who is opposed to taking supps, you should know that brazil nuts are so high in selenium that just one of two a day will fill your daily quota.

lala1 - I was glad to read your post for the input you get from your MO. I've had to do my own research and appts with a nutritionist for any guidance. I take Vit D and Calcium supplement (osteopenia). Then my concern is about anti-inflammatory and building my immune system. So I take Probiotics, fiber cereal, Magnesium (foot cramps), omega 3 and curcumin occasionally a mushroom supplement - turkey tail. Next DIM and calcium D-glucarate. I've never taken a multi-vitamin and try to focus instead on reasonable clean diet. Love my plain green tea as I cannot tolerate sweet drinks (ruined any desire for sweet during chemo) except for some dark chocolate now and then. Regular exercise as in daily walks and barn cleaning 7 days a week (riding weather permitting). I do get a chuckle when someone suggests for me to do weight bearing exercise as I easy lift and carry 50# feed bags and push HEAVY wheelbarrows. That being said I still battle with osteopenia maybe being petite. So far, managing to stay within normal BMI range. Lost weight on chemo and then gained it back....

lala1.....Cannot believe your doc said that most women gain 40 pounds the first year they are on Tamoxifen! Would love to know if thats really true. IMO most women do gain weight on anti hormone treatments but how much? It just seems so contradictory. How much are these anti hormone treatments helping if weight gain is so common? We all know that estrogen is produced by our fat cells. So what is the real benefit? Would love to see some studies on this subject. Good luck to all....