I need some feedback

Hopeful82014
Hopeful82014 Member Posts: 3,480
edited September 2014 in Just Diagnosed
I need some feedback

Comments

  • Hopeful82014
    Hopeful82014 Member Posts: 3,480
    edited September 2014

    As some of you know, I've been going through the process of diagnosis. Now that all my test results are in, I need to make a decision. I have a small tumour and one positive node, which was found on ultrasound and biopsied along with the tumour. And no, it wasn't tested separately for hormone receptor status. It's stage 2, due to the lymph node involvement - otherwise it would be solidly stage 1. It is, apparently, a fast-growing cancer, based on the mitotic rate.

    I have decided on a lumpectomy - that was a pretty easy decision. My surgeon also wants do do ALND, taking out between 6-10 nodes. I have discussed this at length with her, particularly as it relates to the risk of lymph edema. She feels that A) I don't really fit the risk profile for LE, as my BMI is low, I'm active, etc. However, I travel a lot and I do a lot of vigorous and or heavy activities and I am still uncomfortable with the proposed ANLD, particularly after reading new ASCO guidelines on the issue that were published in May of this year, which state that "women with one or two positive sentinel nodes who plan to have lumpectomy plus radiation also don't need axillary node surgery." 

    I find myself becoming almost physically ill when I think about this. One the one hand, I do NOT want to leave frankly cancerous nodes in my lymphatic system. On the other hand, I don't think that the lifelong threat of LE is a trade off I should have to make for a good shot at surviving this cancer long-term. After our meeting today I have been able to think about just about nothing BUT this issue.

    I am thinking of raising the issue with her of why not do the sentinel node tracing prior to the lumpectomy and see what lights up? If several nodes respond, then, fine - do a more extensive dissection. If not, why not leave them alone? 

    Does this seem reasonable to anyone else? Am I overly fixated on this issue? (My husband has concerns about it, too.) 

    We're always being told to listen to our bodies - mine is telling me to pull back, that something is really off. I've got a lot of confidence in her otherwise, but I'm close to seeking a second opinion, based on this issue alone. 

    Unfortunately, while we did discuss this a lot this a.m., I wasn't clear enough on the new ASCO guidelines to discuss THAT info with her. And we all know that guidelines can fail us. I just don't want to have the threat of LE hanging over my head for the rest of my life. 

    I'd welcome anyone to weigh in. Thank you.

  • savgigi
    savgigi Member Posts: 376
    edited September 2014

    Hopeful, can you get a second opinion from another surgeon? 

  • Hopeful82014
    Hopeful82014 Member Posts: 3,480
    edited September 2014

    I can - I don't really know where to start but I think I'm going to have to spend some time looking into that. I may also ask her to present the issue at the clinic's weekly breast cancer tumour board.

  • SpecialK
    SpecialK Member Posts: 16,486
    edited September 2014

    Removal of any number of lymph nodes means that you will have a lifelong risk of lymphedema.  The thing about BMI and fitness is a load of crap - this site is full of slender and fit people with LE, myself included.  That said, how was your positive node tested and why in advance of your surgery?  Was it imaged and thought to be positive so they did a FNA?  I think the option of a SNB during your lumpectomy is pretty reasonable.  If you do a SNB your sentinel should attract the dye and/or tracer, but it is also possible for more than one node to do this, or a clump of nodes in one fat pad - and they will remove them, so you do not escape node removal by doing a SNB.  The first node(s) away from the breast will "light up" whether cancerous or not, so it means that potentially fewer nodes will be removed.  I also see your surgeon's point for some degree of axillary clearance since you already have a known positive node, and nobody knows yet if it was your sentinel that was positive.  You are faced with somewhat of a dilemma.

  • sbelizabeth
    sbelizabeth Member Posts: 2,889
    edited September 2014

    Hopeful, your question -- "why not do the sentinel node tracing prior to the lumpectomy and see what lights up? If several nodes respond, then, fine - do a more extensive dissection. If not, why not leave them alone?"

    The sentinel node tracing isn't meant to demonstrate which, or how many, nodes, are affected by malignancy.  ALL it does is lead the surgeon to the "gatekeeper" lymph nodes that are the first to drain lymph fluid from the breast.  With this tool, the surgeon can biopsy the "gatekeeper" node.  If it's not malignant, the chances of the rest of the nodes being benign are very high. 

    I know what you're asking, though, and I think the newer recommendations advise less drastic axillary dissection. 

    My advice is to get another opinion, hopefully from a university-based surgeon who specializes in breast surgery.  Not a general surgeon.  If you live near a university hospital, call their operator and ask for their cancer clinic.  It's a place to start.  Or google "breast surgeons" along with your hometown.  Another place to start.

    If you need more help, please feel free to PM me.  I'd be happy to help you search.

  • Hopeful82014
    Hopeful82014 Member Posts: 3,480
    edited September 2014

    Thanks for the additional info on the SNB - that makes more sense. My surgeon IS a breast specialist but from the sound of it, you'd think no one else had ever raised the issue and that makes me very uncomfortable. We do have a fairly good cancer institute in town but I'm not really impressed by their offerings. I'll ask around and see what surfaces in terms of other recommendations. 

    SpecialK, my node was actually sort of visible in my follow up mammogram, so the radiologist checked it on the ultrasound. A core biopsy was done that confirmed the malignancy. The radiologist stated that it was the sentinel node.

    None of the other nodes looked suspicious on any of the imaging, but I know that does not tell the whole story.

    I've not met with the radiologist yet but find myself wondering how close the radiation's going to come to the axillary area and what effect that might have. It's on my list of questions for my consult. So the issue of how many nodes come out may be moot. I do realize that even one puts me at risk, but it seems the risk probably climbs according to the number removed - and she's talking about 6-10.

    I'm really kind of angry that the medical establishment seems content to potentially shred a woman's quality of life and feel that we should be grateful that we have a shot just at staying alive. I do NOT want to go through the rest of my life wondering if LE is going to hit (much less dealing with it) as well as wondering if the cancer will recur.

  • SpecialK
    SpecialK Member Posts: 16,486
    edited September 2014

    hopeful - there is no way the radiologist could know if the node was the sentinel unless you had the dye and/or tracer injected and the node removed with a surgical incision.  Did they do any dye/tracer?  And FYI, my positive sentinel and additional, much larger .5cm positive node were not seen on any imaging prior to surgery - you can't rely on imaging to provide any definitive answers there.  As far as radiation goes, you can ask about axillary radiation in addition to your breast radiation. If you elect to skip the ALND I would imagine that the rad onc will recommend axillary rads in addition to whole or partial breast rads. Not to be Debbie Downer, but it is important to note that any breast surgery carries the risk of LE, as does radiation.

  • Hopeful82014
    Hopeful82014 Member Posts: 3,480
    edited September 2014

    K - no, no dye, it is very close to the tumour, and since that's all he does in a specialty clinic, I would expect that he knows what he's talking about but I will check that with other sources on staff. 

    No, you're not being a Debbie Downer. I appreciate the information, even if I despise the situation.

  • PoppyK
    PoppyK Member Posts: 1,805
    edited September 2014

    Hi Hopeful,

    I've seen you on some of the other topics. I understand your concern and will share my experience with you.

    I had a Lx and SNB by a SO at a well know University Medical Center. Only the one node was removed and it was positive. The cancer was contained within the node and had not invaded the surrounding tissue. My SO, MO... the entire tumor board agree that none of the other nodes need to be biopsied. My treatment plan will be the same, even if more nodes are positive, so it isn't worth the increased risk of lymphedema. The chemo and radiation are expected to knock out any remaining cancer cells. The RO will give my lymph nodes an additional boost of radiation, too.

    I hope this answers your question and is of help to you.

  • Hopeful82014
    Hopeful82014 Member Posts: 3,480
    edited September 2014

    Thanks a lot, Poppy. That is very helpful. I imagine the fact that the cancer hadn't escaped the node was fairly critical. Do you know anything about the risk of radiation to the nodes raising the risk for LE?

  • Lily55
    Lily55 Member Posts: 3,534
    edited September 2014

    any radiotherapy treatment or surgery on nodes increases the risk for LE sadly, I had 14 removed, 7 were affected, I had more problems with truncal oedema initially but that is largely gone, just a little below armpit area.......my arm is slightly larger above the elbow than my left

    Horrid isnt it

  • Hopeful82014
    Hopeful82014 Member Posts: 3,480
    edited September 2014

    It is horrid - and then the medical world acts as though we're supposed to be grateful or something...

    Thank you for chiming in. All the feedback helps.

  • Rose_d
    Rose_d Member Posts: 144
    edited September 2014

    Hopeful,

    I had 18 nodes removed after my SNB came back positive during my mastectomy.  There was no cancer in any of the other nodes.

    I then ended up also doing radiation given my age (39 at diagnosis) after getting 3 opinions and much internal debate!  I too was VERY worried about lymphedema (still am).

    The radiation I did was to the breast area and the collarbone area (level 3 nodes), not to the area where the level 1 and 2 nodes had been removed.  They explicitly exclude that area because the nodes were removed and radiating the area would increase the likelihood of lymphedema by WAY too much.  

    According to my RO's research, the radiation that I did increased my overall likelihood of getting lymphedema by 2%. 

    So while I continue to worry about lymphedema, I took comfort in the fact that they did not radiate that area and that the vast majority of damage was done by the dissection rather than the radiation.

    I am two years our from treatment and so far have not had any issues with swelling.

    I hope that helps.

    Rose

  • sbelizabeth
    sbelizabeth Member Posts: 2,889
    edited September 2014

    Hopeful, you're in a wretched place right now, and one that many of us have shared at some point in the past.  There are so many decisions to make, so many factors to be considered, and all of it when you're scared, confused, and overwhelmed.

    Every practitioner has his/her own approach to patient care.  Some are arrogant, some are impatient, some are remote, and some jewels connect with us, through the hell of breast cancer treatment, with compassion, understanding, and support.

    I know you're angry, as most of us were with a breast cancer diagnosis.  At the same time, breast cancer treatment in 2014, as compared to 100 years ago, is designed to save our lives

    If I'd been diagnosed with breast cancer in 1914 I would have just died.  I am grateful for the biopsy pathologist, the implanted port I had, the science behind the chemo, the surgeon who removed my breasts, the radiation oncologist who custom-designed my treatments, and the plastic surgeon who spent 12 hours standing next to me on the operating table, working to re-construct my breasts. 

    I'M ALIVE.  And I'm grateful.

    I just wanted to share my perspective.  You will get to the other side of this mountain.  For me, it was quite a climb, but here I am!  Blessings to you--SBE

  • HomeMom
    HomeMom Member Posts: 1,198
    edited September 2014

    Ok so now I HAVE questions for my MO next Friday when I see her. My radiation from what I understand is going to be to the arm pit area because I had positive nodes and Rose is saying they are avoiding that area because of the increased risk of LE.  I will need a detailed explaination.

  • annika12
    annika12 Member Posts: 433
    edited September 2014

    all the decisions to make is the hardest :( Ask a lot of questions and make a decision you can deal with one way or the other. I had 2 lymph nodes positive before surgery and after chemo my surgeon removed 30 , the rest negative. I would always have wondered what IF if it comes back if I didn't remove...... Im "lucky" so far ....no swelling at all. Wearing my wedding rings, flew to Europe this summer without issues , run, play soccer and have horses I care for on my own. But I also know women who suffer with LE 

  • Hopeful82014
    Hopeful82014 Member Posts: 3,480
    edited September 2014

    Rose and Annika - that's really helpful information. I guess I'm stressing over that because it seems such a random side effect - and I do know women who have LE and it's not easy. 

    I had a long consult with a MO today (whom I liked a lot) and I feel that she honestly hears and understands my concerns. She had a couple of suggestions and we discussed a clinical trial (which would definitely mean 6 rounds of neoadjuvant chemo) which I don't think I'm interested in. She will talk with my surgeon about taking it to the weekly BC roundtable, and also suggested a good option for a 2nd opinion. Both my husband and I felt encouraged - not necessarily that the ANLD won't be required, but that our concerns will be kept top of mind in dealing with that issue. 

    There's hope, too, that I may be able to get by without chemo - AIs only - but we won't know until after surgery. I am crossing my fingers SO hard on that issue that they'll be frozen in place by the time we find out. :) But at least now I have info on the protocols under consideration and feel that I can focus on what comes next, which is consult with the RO. 

    I guess I'm on the slowly moving up phase of the roller coaster...

  • elleredux
    elleredux Member Posts: 45
    edited September 2014

    I had no positive nodes visible on mammogram, two different types of ultrasound, and MRI. However, 1 in 3 sentinal nodes tested positive for a micromet. After two lumpectomies failed to clear all the DCIS surrounding my IDC, I struggled with the decision about having ALND with my mastectomy or radiating the area. Since I was hoping to avoid radiation after mastectomy, I went for the ALND hoping that no further nodes were found. I knew that if further nodes were found I would likely have radiation. One more positive node was found, 5mm with no extra capsular extension. I wasn't happy about doing radiation after mastectomy, but I was glad that the positve node was out of my body. I had radiation, but not to the axilla. I wonder if radiation is thought to completely eliminate cancer in a node. If that's what it does, it seems that radiation is a very viable option to treat any positive nodes that may be there. 

  • lynnetteb75
    lynnetteb75 Member Posts: 33
    edited September 2014

    hopeful ...I was told by my surgeon and one of my rads that unless the nodes were fully inflamed they can't realy tell till the day of the surgery when then do the dye tracer what nodes if any I will have to sign a release if the do find nodes that light up that I give my consent to remove....as I am still in the same stages as you as far as treatment goes I can only say whAt I was told but I do feel your agonizing stress.....

  • Hopeful82014
    Hopeful82014 Member Posts: 3,480
    edited September 2014

    Lynette - we're so close in terms of  diagnosis date and diagnosis, too. I'll be thinking of you as you travel this path that none of us chose. PM me if I can help.

  • Moderators
    Moderators Member Posts: 25,912
    edited September 2014

    Hopeful82014, you have started a very useful and informative thread that we hope helps you and others make their best choices in each case. It always impresses us the support and knowledge depth bought out by the members of this forum, and we thank you all.

    Just wanted to say wishing our best to all of you as you go through this complex decision process that is never easy.

    The Mods

  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Member Posts: 1,376
    edited September 2014

    I'm just chiming in on this topic to say "Thanks" to this forum and all those who contribute.  Where else in the world (and, frankly, on what other topic) could one get so many different personal stories, offered solely as help to someone who is still confused, about a medical issue?  Doctors know a lot more than we do, but they've often traveled down only one path (their experience, their training - which does vary, let's face it). We know our own bodies, and we've all had such different diagnoses, treatments, and results.  While our docs do their jobs to make money, and are not in the business of training us as medical students, it can still be frustrating to be treated either as stupid or bothersome when we want more information and/or are concerned about things (such as debilitating side effects) the doctor is either not aware of or not concerned about.  They treat the average patient, but few of us are average. They are offended when we do our own research, and some don't like it when we feel the need for a second opinion (taking it as a negative critique on their skills). They may operate on us only once, or pump us full of poisons only once. We're good for their research. But we'll (hopefully) have our one body for a long time and we want to ask questions and make informed decisions.

    This is not a rant about doctors. We're lucky to live in a time filled with so much incredible medical knowledge (and I worry we've come to often expect too much), and most of us are lucky to live in "first world" nations so that we can take advantage of this knowledge.

    But it's still nice to sit around with a coffee and talk to a thousand "girlfriends" (and guy friends!) to learn about each others' similar stories and hear the real scoop about how these scary findings and procedures went, to learn how things turned out years down the road, and to support each other in our times of need.

    Best to y'all. Keep asking questions.  Keep answering.  Keep advocating for yourself. Happy

  • Hopeful82014
    Hopeful82014 Member Posts: 3,480
    edited September 2014

    Dear Mods - and Whatnow, as well - 

    Thank you for your well wishes as well as helping to provide such a truly useful, supportive resource. It's been a huge help to me these past two/three weeks and I'm sure it will continue to be. 

    As Whatnow said, we are all in a tough situation but are so fortunate to have this site and these discussion boards. I've looked at several others and find this one to be the most informative, informed and supportive of the lot. 

    Thank you to the mods and to all who help make this such a valuable resource.

  • MerrellGirl
    MerrellGirl Member Posts: 67
    edited September 2014

    Hopeful and everyone else,

    I just wanted to add another perspective.  I too struggled with the idea of an ALND - my cancer was in my left boob and I am left-handed and active, so I really agonized about the lymphedema risks.  So much so that after I decided to have the full node dissection (15 nodes taken + the positive one we knew about) I immediately went for an LE assessment and physical therapy, which was a great idea.  I wear the funky lymphdiva sleeves too, to stave off any swelling - and I have had none. 

    But most importantly, you will see that many of our recon docs are now offering LE surgeries - where (I suppose) they are moving nodes from other parts of your body back into the axilla area in order to alleviate any LE.  It's amazing what they can do nowadays. . .so

    Hopeful, as you consider what's best for you, do know that even if you were to suffer from LE, there may be options for treating it that weren't there even 5 years ago.  I had one known positive node from the initial biopsy, and I did neoadjuvant chemo.  After surgery that one node was still positive although it had shrunk quite a bit, and there was encapsulation (cancer critters outside of the node).  But none of the other nodes were positive. 

    Hope this helps. 

  • Hopeful82014
    Hopeful82014 Member Posts: 3,480
    edited September 2014

    Dear MG - 

    Thanks a ton! I was totally unfamiliar with the notion of LE surgeries - that sounds like a pretty amazing advance. I will definitely keep that in mind. Compared to you I'm not facing as much trauma to the nodes -she's talking 6-10 in addition to the evil one. Still, it LE seems to strike pretty randomly. 

    All of your info was so helpful. Thanks for weighing in. I hope you're doing well, getting back on your feet and recovering from the whole experience.

Categories