I may decide not to do chemo and radiation

naturalhealing I understand your desire to avoid chemotherapy and radiation, but am concerned that you don' fully understand the situation.  Even with Stage 1 cancers and chemotherapy, there is a 30% recurrence.  Also you don't say whether you cancer is ER/PR+ or Her2nu+.  Those factors should definitely be a consideration in your decision.  In the end it is your choice only, but I have known women who rejected all traditional treatment, including tamoxifen and aromotase inhibitors, and did alternative only and had recurrences.  Of course I'm not saying that a recurrence wouldn't happen with treatment, but you really need to understand all the factors of your particular cancer and perhaps go for a second opinion also.  I also do some alternative treatment in addition to standard treatments.  My onc believes very strongly in certain alternative treatments, but always with the traditional treatments.  The alternative treatments that I do definitely help me to tolerate and chemo better and minimize side effects.  Prayers for you on your jouney.

naturalhealing - I didn't see any DX info from you and agreed with a poster wrote that you need to know what kind of BC you are dealing with. 

Have you done the onco type test? I have am integrative doc who originally urged me to do chemo. Then I showed him my onco test and he read the graphs he didn't care my score and he said it made sense for me to skip chemo. It only helps me 2%...

Regardless....we all have to make some life style changes. Are you active? My int doc told me to exercise everyday...and plant based diet. 

naturalhealing - perhaps you can use your alternatives during (check with your MO) and after treatment to help with side effects and building your immune system back up.  I know this seems counter intuitive - kill your immune system with chemo and then try to build it back up,  but these drugs are all we have right now to deal with this disease. As another poster stated, these are drugs that have been tested by thousands of brave women and we know that they can prevent reccurance, not in everyone of course because there will always be a percentage who reoccur anyway.   Cancer is a tricky beast, if you have positive lymph nodes (and in some cases even if you don't) your cancer has already learned to travel, and as such can set up shop somewhere else (liver, lung and bone the most common).  Now is the time to hit it hard to kill anything that may have escaped the breast. 

I had a very healthy diet prior to this mess too, worked out, maintained a very healthy weight etc and I still got cancer ( zero family history or risk factors) just goes to show you can do everything right and it still happens.  I had a complete response to chemo given prior to surgery - zero cancer in breast or nodes.  Do I have SE? yes I suffer from "chemo brain" but that may also be related to menopause and tamox and achy joints (again tamox) but other than that I feel great, tired but great!  I have an 11 year old and a 14 year old and I know how difficult this is with young children - but they are the reason I pushed through even when there were days that I wanted to give up

natural - there's a book you should check out. Anti cancer - a new way of living. It's written by a doc who had brain cancer twice and was able to stay in remission for 20 years. He's pro chemo just want to put it out there.

But his book and his video which is available on YouTube. He had some studies on diet and exercise and I am not sure vegan or vegetarian is the best diet for us. I've read a lot of cancer patients turned vegan or vegetarian and the cancer  returned. We need a balance diet.

It's a tough call....I struggled with the decision as well. I read the book what you doctor might not tell you about BC and that's how I made my decision. My job needs me to be very sharp and use a lot of brain....so that I also put into my consideration. I do not want to be a mediocre at my job. 

i want to add that if you do the alternative method, make sure have a reputable doc do it with you....it's def not a DIY thing.

The Schachter Center is pretty good, I've talked to them but i can't afford it. they've been around for 75 years or since 1975....

Naturalhealing,

Your pathology report will state whether your tumors are hormone positive or negative. I'm not clear on why your physicians would say different things about that topic. Unless the multiple tumors were an issue?

If four lymph nodes were full of cancer, then it is likely that some cancerous cells are circulating in your body. That is what the chemo is for. Removing all of the cancer from the lymph nodes during surgery still leaves the possibility that some cells got out before surgery.

I was very glad to have chemo as an option. For my type of cancer, it is the treatment most likely to be effective. I also did BMX and rads. 

Best wishes.

Natural, you say:

"He's really pushing for chemo before the mastectomy"

Please have a good and full discussion with your doc about why he wants the chemo before surgery. Also make sure you have a chance to discuss this with an oncologist. Seek a second opinion just to be sure. In any event, you need the full pathology report, a final verdict on the hormone status etc before making a decision about treatment.

Then you say:

"but I keep coming back to the fact that I don't want to take the risk of all the things that can happen after chemo."

Chemo is scary for sure, but you can't let yourself be ruled by fear and make decisions based on emotion. It is really hard when you are bombarded with DX and loads of information to keep a clear head. Talk to your doctors, try to ignore friends and family. 

As for the risks of chemo, they are definitely real. However, and this is a huge however, if your risk of dying from the cancer is 40% or more over the next 10-15 years and that risk can be reduced to half or less with chemo, then it is worth it. It is worth it because the risk of serious complications from the chemo is much lower than your risk of dying from the actual cancer.

One of the advantages of doing chemo before surgery is that you can easily measure if the chemo is working. If the tumor shrinks, the chemo is working. If the tumor doesn't shrink, the doctors can quickly switch to a different tactic, saving you unnecessary treatment. Also, when you can feel that it is working, it is much easier to get through. In my case the tumor had shrunk to half after 2 chemos. After 4, it was reduced to a few millimeters in each direction.

When your surgeon said he removed all the cancer (and this would just be in the lymph nodes, as it seems you still have multiple tumours in your breast which may or may not all be the same cancer) he means what he could observe in surgery and what came back on pathology. Neither he, nor a PET scan can guarantee there aren't cells circulating in your body that are looking for a new home. It is impossible in surgery to "get it all" in that sense. Not having mets now show up on a PET scan does not mean you are not at risk for mets in the future. Mets can occur weeks, months, years..even decades later. The chemo is to try and target any of these escaped cells that have not yet had chance to find a new home and multiply to point they become metastatic lesions and tumours.

If your doctor wants to do chemo first, it is usually either as they want to try and shrink the tumour(s) to get better margins, and/or they want to be able to monitor the response to chemo. My mum for example had chemo before surgery, and they switched the regimen after 2-3 cycles as they were not happy with the response; the next chemo cocktail got a much better response.  There are ladies on here with triple-negative cancers who have known before going into surgery that they had a complete response to chemo.  While no guarantee against recurrence, the chances are higher they have significantly reduced their risk (triple negative cancers are generally more aggressive, with higher risk of recurrence especially in the first couple years, but also are more likely to respond to chemo)

Chemo is NOT always recommended; when the risks of chemo do outweigh the benefits for example. I have seen women on here upset their doctor won't recommend them for chemo because of this. But as Momine said above when your recurrence risk is high, and chemo can drastically reduce that, the benefits do outweigh the lower risk of side effects. You have not specified what side effects in particular you are concerned about, but you should know that not all chemo regimens have the same side effects or risks, and there are ways to also manage side effects, etc. I just hate to see you reject something if you are at high risk of recurrence without complete information as you fear side effects (that can be managed) or for your quality of life (which may not be as affected as you fear). I've seen too many loved family members and friends with metastatic breast cancer and now that has very awful "side effects" and really impedes on quality of life (and finally, results in loss of your life). Chemo brain has nothing on brain mets, fatigue has nothing on needing a hip replacement or wheelchair at 50 because bone mets had destroyed your hip and/or spine, or example. I just hate to see you close the door on something that may give you a very good chance to avoid that outcome.

Naturalhealing... you've received lots of things to consider, including getting additional medical opinions and finding out more information.  This is all very good advice.  I would advise the following while you are trying to muddle through all this:

1) Write down all your questions about your diagnosis and go over each- and every one with each oncologist/doctor that you consult.  Take another person with you to the appointment (a second pair of ears can be invaluable during this overwhelming time) or ask to record the session.

2) Write down all of your concerns about conventional treatment and discuss each with whoever you consult.  You need to receive reliable information about conventional treatment vs. complementary treatment (conventional + alternative) vs. alternative treatment only.  Ask for specific information about the benefits/risks of each course IN YOUR CASE.  One Stage III woman's needs may not be the same as another Stage III woman's needs.

3) Keep an open mind, and check your emotions and preconceptions about chemotherapy at the door.  Some of the chemotherapies used in breast cancer treatments are derived from natural sources: Adriamycin is an anthracycline antibiotic closely related to the natural product daunomycin and is derived from soil-based microbes; and Taxol is derived from the bark of the Pacific Yew tree.  Yes, these drugs are both processed in a lab which makes them - technically - synthetic, but many natural therapies are, also, processed in a lab which makes - technically - makes them synthetic, as well.

4) When you find out what type of chemotherapy is being recommended, ask for product monographs on each one that is being recommended for you.  The product monograph is the complete documentation of each drug, including active ingredients, inactive ingredients, chemical structure, potential side effects, etc. and discuss each one with everyone you consult.  As many pointed out above, you need to consider each one for YOUR particular situation.

5) Many cancer centres, now, offer an integrative approach to treatment, combining aspects of both conventional- and complementary/alternative therapies.  Explore this if it is offered by your treatment centre.  While a conventional oncologist will concentrate on the conventional therapies, an integrative oncologist can provide you with a good overview of both conventional and non-conventional therapies; how they interact and complement each other, etc.

6) If you decide to go the all natural route after taking all this into consideration, make sure that you understand the risks completely.  Many natural remedies - like conventional ones - can be dangerous if used inappropriately and some, when combined with others, can produce serious side effects or can negate what you are trying to attempt with the first remedy.  As someone stated above, this is not the time to go-it-on-your-own.  I have studied the use of herbs for years and have found that, just because they are "natural" doesn't mean that they cannot be deadly, dangerous or completely ineffective if not used properly. 

Whatever you decide in the long run, being fully- and completely informed about the ramifications of your decision can help ensure that you will encounter few surprises along the way.  Never forget; no matter what you choose - chemotherapy or no - your body will naturally recover.  It's what bodies are designed to do.

Good luck.

Disclosure:  I was 50 years old when I was diagosed with Stage 2, Grade 2 IDC, ER/PR+ HER2-, 1/7 nodes positive.  I did opt for surgery, chemotherapy and radiation (I had a lumpectomy, so radiation was a given) and three years later, I am in fabulous health; cycling up to 50km a week; hiking regularly; gardening; swimming; playing basefall; and enjoying life.  My heart is fine, my lungs are fine, and my immune system is working marvelously, and I am part of a clinical trial exploring the use of Metformin to reduce recurrence risk.  I am currently taking Tamoxifen to reduce recurrence and have experienced very few side effects. 

And what is an existing, not hypothetical, cancer?

We agree, Liz. 

Thank you all for offering your helpful and thoughtful advice to Naturalhealing, and for remembering that if you do not necessarily agree with treatment options being discussed in a certain forum, you're encouraged to read elsewhere.

Thoughtful and engaging posts are always welcome; judgmental and condescending posts are not.

Thank you for continuing to keep Breastcancer.org a welcome, safe, and open place of discussion.

--The Mods

liz...agreed as well. it's pretty brutal to read on the other thread....

I haven't seen anyone bypass chemo when it is recommended. I think I'm the only one who felt that chemo wasn't the answer. My decision may have been tainted with a couple experiences one with a very good friend who had a rare cancer and died young at 35. It was the harsh chemo that caused her tumors to resist and grow out of control with in a month. Two months later she died. Another was my neighbor whose brother had surgery to remove colon cancer less than a month later he was dead from the chemo. God help me but I could never take poison.