SNB versus ALND?

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mgcf
mgcf Member Posts: 18
edited December 2014 in Triple-Negative Breast Cancer

Curious if anyone's had this situation and your decision.... My surgeon initially recommended an ALND because 1-2 lymph nodes show enhancement on MRI and ultrasound, though neither have been biopsied before chemo and therefore we don't know if they would test positive for cancer. After telling him of my active lifestyle and physical job, he recommended an SNB, indicating that the difference in lymph node re-occurrence is only 3-4% and it would decrease the risk of lymphedema.  He also indicated that lymph node re-occurrence would not contribute to the risk of mets, but rather tumour biology drives distant re-occurrence.  

He is considered a leading expert working out of a major cancer centre, so I'd like to think that his SNB recommendation is not under-treating the cancer, but at the same time I'm terrified of re-occurrence.  

Any thoughts or studies you've come across on the risk/benefits of SNB vs ALND?

Comments

  • Lou10
    Lou10 Member Posts: 332
    edited May 2014

    I had a SNB at the time of my lumpectomy (my pre-surgery MRI also showed some node enhancement I think). The SNB was positive for cancer, as was an intramammary node, and the cancer had extended past the capsule in both cases. Because of that I was believed to have extensive node involvement and was scheduled to have ALND surgery after chemo. However, by the time I finished chemo (summer 2011) some large-scale research had come out indicating that radiation of the lymph nodes had the same benefits as ALND surgery with fewer risks (lymphedema particularly) for patients meeting certain criteria. So I opted for radiation of the lymph nodes rather than ALND (I had to have breast radiation any way). I'm not sure if this is relevant to your situation. Good luck.

  • SpecialK
    SpecialK Member Posts: 16,486
    edited May 2014

    It might be helpful to know what your hormonal receptor/Her2 status is.  I had SNB accompanying my BMX and had 20 IST in the SNB.  Because I was strongly Her2+ both my forward-thinking BS and MO both insisted that I have ALND, due to the aggressiveness of the type of cancer.  My BS is not a knee-jerk reactionary who insists on ALND, he was actually one of the pioneers of SNB and sentinel mapping.  I had an unusual situation in that further up the chain I had a .5cm node, which surprised everyone because it was never seen on mammo/US/MRI prior to BMX.  Had I not had that surgically removed it would have been akin to leaving a stage 1 breast lump in place.  My BS, who maintains a 25 year database of all of his patients, felt that with chemo and radiation I would have had a 60% chance of eradicating the cancer in that node if I had relied on chemo and radiation only.  The difficulty in making a decision in your case is clouded by neo-adjuvant chemo, and no confirmed biopsy of cancer in those nodes.  I have a TN friend who was having neo-adjuvant chemo and  I urged her to have a SNB done when her port was placed so that she would be fully informed and properly staged.  I don't know why more surgeons don't recommend this for those who will undergo neo-adjuvant chemo, it would sure help in situations like yours.  Wishing you the best!

  • mgcf
    mgcf Member Posts: 18
    edited May 2014

    SpecialK, thanks so much for your insight.  Wishing I have the nodes assessed before chemo too, which I think my current surgeon would have done, though I only recently switched to him. 

    I'm being treated as triple negative, though ER/PR receptors are slightly positive at 4%, (Her2 negative).

    I forgot to mention in my original post, the current surgeon proposing the SNB indicated that dye would be injected before the surgery and he would pull out nodes that light up, and, depending what he finds, he may proceed to a full ALND within the same surgery.  Hoping this approach would take care of any cancer further up the chain, just the thought makes me shiver! 

  • SpecialK
    SpecialK Member Posts: 16,486
    edited May 2014

    mgcf - that is a standard SNB approach.  I was unusual in that my sentinel (only one lit up on the cancer side, two on the other side - I had bi-lat SNB) was declared clear in the OR so no more nodes were removed.  The pathologist only discovered the 20 IST in the lab on the more in-depth slice and dice after surgery.  My ALND was done five weeks later and the second positive, much larger, node was discovered then.  With a TN dx, or being treated as such, I would want to be as sure as possible too - it is nerve wracking, right?

  • Luah
    Luah Member Posts: 1,541
    edited May 2014

    MGCF: I had surgery first, Lx and SNB. No prior indication of disease in my nodes (and this is not unusual) until the path report came back: 2 nodes clear, 1 with ITCs and 1 considered micromets. I agonized over doing the ALND or moving quicker into chemo followed by additional rads. The research that Lou10 refers to was just beginning to emerge, and had it been a year or two later I probably would have foregone the ALND. That said, breast surgery and rads also carry the risk of LE, so no guarantees obviously. (Fortunately I haven't had to deal with LE.). Good luck with your decision, are you at PMH?

  • mgcf
    mgcf Member Posts: 18
    edited May 2014

    SpecialK:  This TN diagnosis is frightening, but can't think of a cancer diagnosis that wouldn't be!  Did you develop lymphedema as a result of the ALND?

    Lou10:  Thanks for you input, this is very helpful.  Do you, by chance, remember the name of the study that indicated that radiating lymph nodes had the same benefits as ALND surgery with fewer risks?  Would love to review the criteria for being considered a candidate for this approach. 

    Luah:  I know what you mean.  I've lost a lot of sleep over worrying about the aftermath of an ALND, which drove me to seek a second opinion.  So yes, it looks like I'll be getting the surgery at PMH though had chemo at SMH.

  • SpecialK
    SpecialK Member Posts: 16,486
    edited May 2014

    I did develop lymphedema, but I had a sudden and serious body-wide swelling during chemo, and this triggered axillary web syndrome, cording and lymphedema.  It might have happened with a SNB only, so I will never know if it was directly tied to the ALND. I had bi-lat SNB and do have more minimal swelling in the SNB only arm as well.  Obviously, the more nodes you remove the greater the risk. 

  • Moderators
    Moderators Member Posts: 25,912
    edited May 2014

    MGCF and Lou10, this article from the main Breastcancer.org site's Research News section sounds as though it may be the study you're thinking of:

    Radiation to Axillary Lymph Nodes Causes Less Lymphedema Than Surgery

    • The Mods

  • mgcf
    mgcf Member Posts: 18
    edited May 2014

    SpecialK:  The body wide swelling sounds alarming, I thought lymphedema would be scary enough!  I hope that it's under control now?  You look fabulous in your picture, hope I come out looking as good after this ordeal.  :)

  • SpecialK
    SpecialK Member Posts: 16,486
    edited May 2014


    MGCF - It was alarming at the time, but it was confined to the time period when I received chemo - a combination reaction to Taxotere and the steroids I was given.  All is well now, don't worry.  That picture was taken last year, a year after finishing active treatment - thank you for the compliment!  I actually started a food sensitivity and elimination diet at the beginning of the year and my lymphedema was vastly improved by it, as well as my aromatase inhibitor induced joint pain. 

  • Luah
    Luah Member Posts: 1,541
    edited May 2014

    Mods, thanks for posting that summary of the research. Very compelling results in favour of rads. 

    It doesn't look like the study considered hormone receptor status, so I guess we can assume for now that's not a variable, or at least not one that's been studied yet.  

  • Lou10
    Lou10 Member Posts: 332
    edited May 2014

    Mods, thanks for posting that research. 

    MGCF, in my case, it was earlier (2011) research. If believe the first and pivotal study was one published in JAMA called "Axillary Dissection vs No Axillary Dissection in Women with Invasive Breast Cancer and Sentinel Node Metastasis" (Feb 9, 2011--Vol 305, No 6, pp 569 - 575). Then there was a large Canadian-led study, on the effects of radiation to the lymph nodes, that was reported at the annual meeting of ASCO a few months later. I don't have a reference to that, just a news release from the Canadian Cancer Society on June 4, 2011, called "Practice-changing cancer trial shows additional radiation decreases cancer recurrence". I'm pretty sure those were the two studies that affected my treatment, but obviously there have been more since. Best wishes.

  • mgcf
    mgcf Member Posts: 18
    edited May 2014

    Mods and Lou10:  Thank you for posting the research.  This will go a long way in understanding my surgeon's recommendations and engaging in a conversation. 

    I really appreciate everyone's help and input, beginning to feel better about surgery.

  • mgcf
    mgcf Member Posts: 18
    edited December 2014

    I had a major SNB vs ALND dilemma back in May and thought I'd post an update. I ended up having 5 nodes removed (all tested negative for BC post chemo) + radiation. Took a while to recover, but my arm feels normal now - no problems.

    I based my decision on a second opinion I received from a major cancer center, as well as the results of the Z2011 study - landmark study which showed that SNB is not inferior to ALND in cases where there is limited node involvement.

    Posting a couple of links to the study, and hope it helps future sisters facing a similar dilemma make the best decision for them.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21304082

    http://www.cancer.gov/cancertopics/factsheet/detec...

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