Ketogenic diet? I am so confused

Piper, do you get any exercise?

I've done some more research on bloodroot & it's not to be used lightly.  plastic surgery needed after success.  caustic.  very painful

Piper and zogo, this may provide a clue to your elevated glucose.

http://www.thelivinlowcarbshow.com/shownotes/1172/dr-thomas-seyfried-on-killer-carbs-ketosis-as-a-cancer-cure-episode-302/

What exactly is so dangerous about unrestricted ketogenic eating?

The ketogenic diet contains large amounts of high caloric saturated fats. It is not healthy to eat large amounts of saturated fats. This will contribute to cardiovascular disease and diabetes. High blood glucose levels are associated with high fat consumption even when there are no carbohydrates in the diet. High blood glucose levels will accelerate tumor growth. The liver will synthesize glucose from the glycerol component of the triglycerides. Consequently, the KD should be consumed in restricted amounts, especially over prolonged periods. As I have clearly written in my articles, “more is not better” when it comes to eating the ketogenic diet for either epilepsy or brain cancer.

Does this mean the only safe way to very low-carb is to engage in intermittent fasting or eat tiny meals?

Yes. People can prove this to themselves by simply measuring their blood glucose levels under these conditions.

What about people who do this for management of epilepsy, do they restrict calories, too?

Yes. The KD is always administered in restricted amounts to patients with epilepsy. Seizure protection is lost in epilepsy patients who consume too much KD. Again, it relates to blood glucose levels. Epilepsy is managed best when blood glucose levels remain stable in the low range (65-75 mg/dl).

Are you implying that people who eat an unrestricted ketogenic diet are doing gross metabolic harm?

Gross metabolic harm would happen only if the diet was consumed in large amounts over extended periods, e.g., weeks or months. The diet is healthy only when consumed in small amounts. This will produce the condition of low glucose with elevated ketones.

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I still haven't started measuring ketones, which I wanted to do in relation to my metformin intake and exercise. I chickened out of measuring my blood glucose because I don't like sticking myself if I don't really have to. My doctor is monitoring me, so I'm sure he will let me know my sugar levels. I did do an intermittent fast three years ago for a whole year. That's when I ate only during a window of 7 hours everyday. I had only coffee with milk for breakfast, exercised for an hour, had my first meal at noon and my last before 7pm. I lost weight then. I'm thinking I should do it again.

I tend to agree with one of the commenters on that page

"The glycerol backbone is only a small part of a fat molecule. The acyl groups constitute 90% or more of the weight of a fat and they cannot be converted to glucose. My guess is that the high blood glucose levels associated with high fat/no carbohydrate diets are the result of gluconeogenesis of the protein consumed along with the fat.

Unless Dr. Seyfried can show that high blood glucose follows a meal of nothing but fat, I would be more inclined to believe that high blood glucose on a ketogenic diet results from eating too much protein rather than eating too much fat."

I came across this article regarding fatty liver disease

http://www.ketogenic-diet-resource.com/fatty-liver-disease.html

I am now using the Optimal Ketogenic Living macros by Raymund Edwards. It is low carb and specific protein based on your lean body mass, given by your height. There is plenty of healthy fats, but they are not pushed like some low carb high fat diets.

Fortunately, I don't have the fatty liver. But, here is an article from Dr Andeas Eenfeldt, an expert in the field, for those who might be interested. http://www.dietdoctor.com/low-carb-diet-best-fatty-liver

How are you doing on your regime? I may have a recurrance and very agitated right now

Shesha, Congrats on making it through the first week of keto. That is truly the hardest part! There really is a ton of research on this way of eating and especially for cancer.

Check out this video by Dr Colin Champ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ot96y5-D_K0

This thread is awesome!

I truly beleive that nutrition is linked to breast cancer risk. In particular to breast cancer patients that have hormone receptive cancer. I'm quite young and don't have a genetic mutation

Two to three years before my diagnosis I was told that I was pre-diabetic and have high cholesterol. I stopped to think back when my eating habits were crazy and it was during college and right after when I couldn't find a job. Stress eating and not exercing was all that I was doing. Lifestyle is HUGE.

Now I know it takes cancer time to form, I really do believe I was propelling myself through my lifestyle for some time now. The good news is I still can change.

I have been trying to transition into a Paleo diet but hve also read about keto and needed more information. Thanks for this.

Ladies I was interested in your discussion of fasting glucose going up on the keto diet. I recently did a two week very low carb challenge with my husband. At the end of two weeks, we went out to a restaurant for dinner. The next morning my fasting glucose (we bought meters) was 107. Mine had been 88 the morning we started the diet. Plus, I've never, ever measured more than 90. The last two weeks I'm back on my more normal diet (Paleo) where I eat fewer carbs than many people but added back a fruit or two a day and maybe a sweet potato. Then last night I ate a meatball sub because I was getting sick and didn't care. This morning my fasting glucose was 114, BUT two hours post lunch my glucose was 86. I'm so confused!

I did find a reference on Chris Kesser's website that this is not a problem if your A1C is good. I went to pubmed and found a study that said one single low carb meal can mess up the glucose testing of pregnant women. It must be sort of normal but I admit it freaks me out. Do you think that maybe our body has learned to summon its fat for blood sugar and that is all there is to it? Or am I so carb intolerant now that I can't eat 60 grams of carb in one meal?

Piper, its somewhat scary to go against the conventional wisdom with diet. I have settled on Paleo as a routine diet. You can eat fruits and vegetables on it. I've added some fasting periods a couple of times a year, but I'm not even sure I'm fasting long enough. I feel like ketosis is also good for us, but now I'm a little worried.

Nice job on the research, fallleaves. Keto on!

That soup sounds awesome! Yes please more recipes :-)

Has anyone tried the keto diet with stage 4?

I have more recipes I want to add but have been too busy, since most of them are in my head and I have to take the time to write them down. My strategy is to take any recipe I want to eat and then adapt it into something that works on my diet, so I never feel deprived. Sometimes you can get it so close that carb lovers would never know the difference (like the oyster dressing I made for Thanksgiving), but even when I can't get that close, what turns out is usually so delicious on its own that no one misses the original. Really the sky is the limit, even breads and crackers - although I don't personally make substitutes for baked goods very often because I tend to want to overeat them, which can give you too many carbs due to volume.

I don't eat dairy either and that is not a problem, although I do have to supplement calcium as needed (usually no more than 250mg/day so I do get close to enough from diet alone). I only eat 4-5 oz. of meat/poultry/fish per day plus usually one egg, and most days I get plenty of protein. Keto isn't high protein, you just want an adequate amount, enough for tissue repair and bodily functions. For me that's around 60grams per day. If I exercise a lot I try to eat more.

My fasting blood sugar was staying around 75 at all times (even after meals), but I just had a blood test recently and it went up into the 80s. Doctor says it's from the tamoxifen - but the idea on keto is to keep it steady whatever the baseline. You don't want fluctuations up or down.

Keto is not a low calorie diet (I don't even count calories), but you're making up for the missing carbohydrates with fat. Traditionally that includes unlimited animal fat, but I do limit the animal fat because of my ER+ cancer. I'm not sure that's even necessary but I figure better safe than sorry. I don't limit healthy fats like avocados, olive oil, coconut oil, etc., and I eat a good amount of nuts and seeds (not unlimited because they do contain carbs). If I didn't want to lose more weight I would just push the carbs as high as I can without kicking myself out of ketosis, and then add more healthy fat only if necessary. I eat between 20-30 net carbs per day during weight loss (net carbs = total carbs - fiber), but I think many people can eat as high as 50 and remain in ketosis. That does vary in individuals so you have to find the right balance for you.

I've seen you mention Paleo before, Englishmummy. I started losing weight on Paleo and keto is just a hop, skip and a jump from there. Giving up the grains is the hardest part of adapting to keto, but since I had already quit eating them, all I really had to do was watch my carbs a little more closely. But I don't think you necessarily need to go full keto for the cancer if you don't need to lose weight.

Englishmummy, I'm like you in that I have an entire library of nutrition and health information in my head, and I love to share (probably too much sometimes LOL). Ironically, even at 288 lbs. I had no other health problems until the cancer reared its head. My blood pressure, blood sugar, cholesterol levels - everything was good, which annoyed my doctor to no end because she couldn't accept that all of the good things I was doing mitigated the bad. Obviously I don't recommend morbid obesity to anyone as a health strategy - I'm sure it contributed to the cancer due to excess estrogen production, and I had severely limited mobility - but I think I am living proof that you can keep yourself healthy in most ways even when you're not perfect.

Separate from the carbs and keto, there are other health reasons I chose to stop eating grains. That would be a real long story, but check out a book called Wheat Belly Total Health by Dr. William Davis for a breakdown of the scientific reasons for that. But technically there is nothing you can't eat on keto as long as you can stay in ketosis. Most people aren't going to be able to eat a whole bowl of oatmeal or beans without kicking themselves out of ketosis, but can probably get away with some. I don't eat full servings of beans but I add them to soups and stews without any problem. Beets are not considered a keto food, but I love them and I figured out that I can eat some as long as I eat plenty of healthy fat and fiber along with them to balance out the glycemic load.

I learned what works for me by testing my blood sugar before and after meals the first month, with the goal being no change. Then I kept tweaking things until I got it right. I used to use the Ketostix daily but I don't need to now that I know what I can eat. Every once in awhile I do a test to make sure I'm still on track. If I accidentally kick myself out of ketosis, I always go back into it the next day as long as I don't get off track for more than one meal.

Glad everyone enjoyed the soup!