Can you help me with an FMLA question?

Can you help me with an FMLA question?

Comments

  • april485
    april485 Member Posts: 3,257
    edited March 2013


    I have recently been diagnosed with early stage breast cancer. I had plenty of sick time to cover the two separate instances that I had to be out (3 days each) for two surgeries (a lumpectomy and a re-excision for clear margins) and supplied a doctor's note for both instances.

    The HR person is saying that I HAVE to file FMLA for any time off for this illness to "cover me" in case. I do not want to do this as I don't anticipate being out for more than a few hours here and there for doctor's appts. My supervisor agrees with me. The personnel policy only states a note must be provided if out for 3 days which I did both times.

    Can she make me start my clock ticking on FMLA leave? I don't want to IN CASE I need it down the road for my illness as I will be having radiation AFTER work for 7 weeks, 5 x a week and if it makes me sick, I might need it then so I did not think I should start the claim this early, but the HR person is INSISTING that I do this.

    I asked her why because people have taken far more time off than I have and have NEVER been asked to file FMLA. I made the mistake of telling her I have BC and asked her for a copy of the FMLA paperwork just in case. I never told her I was filing a claim! I have only missed 8 days total for BC reasons. One for the stereo biopsy, 3 days each for the two lumpectomies and one day when I had multiple appts in the same day. I gave my supervisor documentation of all of it and I have plenty of paid leave to cover this.

    She is pushing this big time and in fact told me that I was already late supplying her with the paperwork as policy states 15 days after filing but I never filed! Just asked her for the paperwork "in case" and now she is telling me that I did file (have proof via emails back and forth that I did not but just asked for it) and my hunch is (and  my supervisor thinks this too) is that she opened a case for me and now wants to cover her own ass.

    What would you do? Would you just give in and file it or hold out. I don't want my clock ticking in case I DO need it up the road. Ugh...sorry for the book here. I am stressed enough without her giving me so much grief!

    She is telling me I have to. Please advise!

  • BrooksideVT
    BrooksideVT Member Posts: 2,211
    edited March 2013

    I had a similar experience.  I filed for short term disability for my lumpectomy. followed by a second surgery a week later to evacuate a hematoma. The representative I spoke to insisted that the FMLA forms were "part of it."  I went ahead and filed for DI, which was approved.  I did not file the FMLA paperwork and have not heard anything more (I work for a very large company, so it might take them a while to catch up with me).  I've gone on the Department of Labor website (DOL.gov) and find the issue of whether we have the right to use vacation time or ordinary sick time unclear; they seem to say that we do and they also seem to indicate that we do not.  I suggest calling the DOL at 1-866-4-USA-DOL  (1-866-487-2365) between 8 AM and 8 PM eastern time; I'm planning to do that myself.

    I am now in the process of filing for DI once again and, this time, FMLA as well, as I'm just finishing up rads at a facility two hours from my home--no way I can do anything else.

  • april485
    april485 Member Posts: 3,257
    edited March 2013

    Bump! Hoping someone sees this that knows a lot about FMLA! Thanks Brookside. Will definitely call DOL today!

  • J9W
    J9W Member Posts: 395
    edited March 2013

    Hi April,  I used FMLA for when I had to be out on doc appointments. 

    "Employees must provide 30 days advance notice of the need to take FMLA leave when the need is foreseeable. When 30 days notice is not possible, the employee must provide notice as soon as practicable and generally must comply with an employer's normal call in procedures.Employees must provide sufficient info for the employee to determine if the leave may qualify for FMLA protection and the anticipated timing and duration of the leave".

    Here's the scary part:  "Covered employers must inform employees requesting leave whether they are eligible under FMLA".

     

    I would think that in your case, the company could make a case that you should have/must provide the 30 days notice since your need for FMLA is foreseeable...this may be why the HR person is so concerned.  Go to www.wagehour.dol.gov and you should be able to get info on FMLA.

  • Nurse_Lizzie
    Nurse_Lizzie Member Posts: 70
    edited March 2013

    Hi April

    I happen to be a manager, and so have needed to have FMLA conversations with staff in addition to needing to have my own conversation.  The following is my understanding of the FMLA rules, which come from the feds:

    FMLA is intended to protect the employee from termination during an illness.  The hoops can be fairly complicated, but it does help to keep that in mind.  Your employer is required to grant you FMLA when you meet the following:  you have worked >1 year, have worked >1200 hours (I think) and there are more than 30 employees of your company (or something like that) and your absence will be three days or greater.  Now, once you employer becomes aware that your are taking time off related to an illness, they MUST initiate FMLA.  It is my understanding that there is no grey area.  And becoming aware does not have to be in writing.

    There are some very specific rules about intermittent family leave also, which I'm not as clear about.  Anyway, you are required to complete some very complicated forms, and your physician is also required to fill out form on your behalf, but your HR department should have all of that stuff available to you. See this website: http://www.dol.gov/whd/fmla/employeeguide.pdf

    Using vacation/sick hours, depending on your company is optional.  But because you use paid time off, it does not eliminate the need to do FMLA paperwork and begin the process, as this is a federal mandate, and not individual company policy. 

    Personally, I found that the most difficult part of the whole FMLA deal was coming back from leave following my surgeries.  You will be required to have documentation from your doc that you are able to return.  Seems redundant, especially if your first LOA documentation was for a specific time, like "can return on 4/1"  because you will still need a 4/1 note saying "capable of returning to work".

    Finally, I think it's important to remember that the FMLA hoops are for your protection, but they do have limits.  Your employer CANNOT terminate you as long as you are on FMLA.  However, you are only eligble for 12 weeks total in a year.  Not a calendar year, but a rolling year.  It doesn't require that they pay you or provide you with paid benefits either.  But it does keep your right to COBRA and dismissal. I actually might worry about discipline if you refuse to file the paperwork.

    Hope this helps.  Your HR department really can be your friend in this process!

    Nurse Lizzie

  • april485
    april485 Member Posts: 3,257
    edited March 2013

    While I thank everyone for responding, I must not have been clear. I DONT WANT FMLA filed! She is making me do it even though I have NOT requested to do so. I have only been out 8 days since Jan 1st (two lumpectomies) and I provided a note for all appts. I do NOT want my clock ticking because if something happens down the road (say I get a recurrence in 2014 and it is invasive and I need to be off for a mastectomy/recons, then I would not have this available for me due to having used it and not working the required 1250 hours in the new calendar year!

    Can she MAKE me file? I had the time availiable as paid time off and never was out more than 3 days (and provided a note for both lumpectomies!)

    I believe that she is discriminating cause I have BC. My supervisor is on my side and thinks the HR lady is wrong too.

    I want to PROTECT my rights to file FMLA if I ever need to. I dont' need it right now!!

  • april485
    april485 Member Posts: 3,257
    edited March 2013

    No where in that literature does it say I have to file for FMLA when I don't want to. I only asked about it "in case" and she decided to institute it. I never asked to file this nor did I need it or want it.

    They only have to "offer" it, not make me take it per the information.

  • dltnhm
    dltnhm Member Posts: 873
    edited March 2013

    April -



    I'm not in HR or management, but I hear what you are saying and agree. If you have not requested FMLA, your FMLA clock should not start ticking.



    You have PTO (sick days) and are using those the way any employee would use them for doctor's visits, procedures, illness, etc.



    I can understand where HRight teach out to attempt to protect your future rights - but as you are not facing that extent of treatment right now, it makes sense to me that you do not want that ball rolling prematurely.



    My husband has access to FMLA but did not access it at all through my surgery, recovery, Feb - July chemo, and rads. He had a flexible schedule as an exempt employee and plenty of PTO. In fact, it was only recently mentioned to him that he might want to check with HR regarding FMLA in the future.



    It appears that the HR person may indeed have jumped the gun.



    Hoping you can get this taken care of with minimal extra effort. (Guess that might be an oxymoron.)



    Diana

  • Nurse_Lizzie
    Nurse_Lizzie Member Posts: 70
    edited March 2013

    Please go to the following web site, and scroll down to number 2. http://www.fmlainsights.com/fmla-faqs/fmla-faq-must-an-employer-designate-fmla-leave-when-the-employee-does-not-want-to-use-fmla-leave-org

    There can be no discretion on the part of the employer, they are REQUIRED to deem an absence FMLA if they are aware.

    Lizzie

  • Chickadee
    Chickadee Member Posts: 4,467
    edited March 2013

    I am not a lawyer (but did used to be a union steward) but you might want to request interpretation from your state labor dept if you have no union representation. The paragraph below isnt entirely clear to me but seems to say you are within your rights to request your paid leave rather than FMLA. Boilerplate language like this can be very useful when asserting your rights. I doubt the HR person has even read this. They aren't perfect we know,



    http://www.ctdol.state.ct.us/wgwkstnd/laws-regs/famedreg.pdf



    Page 32



    See 29 CFR §825.207)

    § 31-51qq-18 Is FMLA leave paid or unpaid?



    (c) Substitution of paid accrued vacation, personal or medical/sick leave may be made for any unpaid leave needed to care for a family member, or the employee’s own serious health condition. Substitution of medical/sick leave may be elected to the extent the circumstances meet the employer’s usual requirements for the use of medical/sick-leave. An employer is not required to allow substitution of paid sick or medical leave for unpaid FMLA leave “in any situation” where the employer’s uniform policy would not normally allow such paid leave. An employee, therefore, has a right to substitute paid medical/sick leave to care for a seriously ill family member only if the employer’s leave plan allows paid leave to be used for that purpose. Similarly, an employee does not have the right to substitute paid medical/sick leave for a serious health condition which is not covered by the employer’s leave plan.

  • dltnhm
    dltnhm Member Posts: 873
    edited March 2013

    April-



    Sorry I missed your planned radiation treatments in my first read through.



    I can see where the 'need for FMLA is foreseeable' part might apply to you in this case. On the one hand, it is your intention to have your treatments after work and not take time off for those. On the other hand, you suggest that you might need to use it at some time during that period or after if the need arises. (Which is completely understandable).



    I do think, however, that a case can be made for not having that clock ticking as early as your first surgical procedures.



    You are anticipating that the earliest you would use the FMLA is after you have started radiation treatments. So the earliest clock ticking date you are looking at is the first date of rads (or the mapping date) which it is doubtful you will need time off for symptoms or illness at that time.



    Keep plugging through all of this.



    Diana.

  • Cindyl
    Cindyl Member Posts: 1,194
    edited March 2013

    I'm a supervisor at my work. As others have said... at our institution, if I as a supervisor become aware that an employee may need FMLA coverage I'm required to institute FMLA regaurdless of the employees wishes. 

    Now I have more than 2500 hours of sick leave.  And if HR knew about my cancer they'd force me onto FMLA.  Crazy.  But as long as I don't tell them, and as long as I don't exceed 3 days leave at a time I can use all my leave and need not request FMLA. We make sure information about FMLA is available to the employees, but don't push things unless someone brings it up, or has less than 12 weeks of leave.

    So yeah my understanding is, they can make you file for FMLA.

    I fully expect a huge lawsuit when they eventually terminate someone with earned leave on the books who has exhausted FMLA, but hopefully it won't happen.

  • Golden01
    Golden01 Member Posts: 916
    edited March 2013

    I work for a large public employer. FMLA paperwork is automatically filed by HR for any employee absent for more than three days. No exceptions. FMLA paperwork goes directly to HR. Supervisors do not see any of the documentation. In otherwords, the FMLA paper work is filed if someone has a bad case of the flu and is gone three days or for me when I was out for my BC surgeries. In my case, once we knew the date of the first surgery, we filed all the FMLA paperwork and the doctors provided the necessary forms ahead of time. The only  problem was when HR lost some paperwork from my BS and no one told me. A few days before my second surgery (BMX), when the HR lady was giving me a long list of what I needed to do rather than her checking into anything, I just said, I'm having a mastectomy, you'll need to figure it out. They did. 

  • Chickadee
    Chickadee Member Posts: 4,467
    edited March 2013

    I'm thinking each state may have put their own imprint on the basic FED requirements. Hopefully there is a state function that can help interpret.

  • april485
    april485 Member Posts: 3,257
    edited March 2013

    Thank you all. She has decided to back off of this for now. If and when I need it, I will file it. If she doesnt apply the law equally to those with flu, back issues etc, she can't make me do it for cancer per my DD who is a lawyer!

    So, my clock will not tick...until I want/need it to!

  • Cindyl
    Cindyl Member Posts: 1,194
    edited March 2013

    Glad to here they are giving you some space...  Yes anything that isn't applied equally is sure trouble for the organization. Laughing

  • Nurse_Lizzie
    Nurse_Lizzie Member Posts: 70
    edited March 2013

    I checked in with my HR manager, who I believe knows her stuff, AND she's pretty ethical.  The moral of this story is: if you don't want the FMLA clock to start ticking, DO NOT inform your work in any way of a serious medical condition.  Don't talk to your coworkers, managers, even on the Q-T, for risk of HR to discover the reasons for your absences.

    However, you do run the risk of unapproved time off, or even worse, putting your job into jeopardy if multiple "unwarranted absences".  Just a thought....

  • Cindyl
    Cindyl Member Posts: 1,194
    edited March 2013

    Yeah. It's a balancing act.  One more fracking thing that we do not need when we are dealing with everything else that goes with cancer.  And I personally don't believe FMLA is being administered as it was meant to be.  For those of us who have been on the job a long time (25 years) used little leave, and entitled contractually to "carry" that leave forward?   FMLA is a club to beat us with.  I understand that for those who don't have such generous leave policies where we work, it's a god send but...  yeah.  Don't ask, don't tell.  That's my motto.

  • april485
    april485 Member Posts: 3,257
    edited March 2013

    Cindyl, I have found out the hard way about "don't ask, don't tell" but it appears that the HR person in my agency (non profit) did not do everything right in my case and as such, she is not able to code me FMLA. She has had several other employees who called out for up to two weeks with back problems etc and did not ask them/code them FMLA and therefore can't single me out due to having BC because she heard the word "cancer" about my case. Also, she did not give me my rights and responsibilities (had no knowledge of any 15 day rule) because she out and out lied to me (in writing in an email) that she just wanted me to have the doctor fill out the FMLA paperwork to have on file "in case" so when she came back to me and flipped out that I did not bring the paperwork in so I was not "protected" for this illness and she could deny me FMLA moving forward, the attorney for our agency looked into it and told her she blew it and that I could indeed count my two surgeries as plain sick time since I brought a doctor's note and I did not violate the personnel policy (very vague on the one page about FMLA making it sound like we need to request it) so now, my clock is NOT ticking.

    Of course, if I am out for any length of time, or violate the sick time rules  which states more than 4 unauthroized (whatever that means) absences in 45 days (which I agree is generous) then I would face a verbal warning.

    I am happy it has been resolved in my favor as I don't anticipate needing any more time other than a few hours here and there for appts which I will use personal or vacation time for if necessary.

    Thanks for all of your help. It appears she was right and could have filed FMLA but she didn't do it correctly so she missed the boat.

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