Breast MRIs - dealing with contradictory findings

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chelseasanfran
chelseasanfran Member Posts: 48
edited June 2014 in Stage I Breast Cancer

5/5/12 posting

Since I first posted on the topic of pre-op and post-op screening for cancer on 4/27/12, I had a second breast MRI (last week) at a different institution with a different machine. To my surprise and dismay, the findings/reading of the second one was totally different than the first, which found a suspicious mass in my good breast and recommended second look Ultra Sound and US guided core-biopsy. The interventional radiologist who read my second MRI done last week said she didn't see any specific mass in my good breast, just a lot of non-enhancing bright spots all over the good breast c/w fibrocystic disease. She said I could/might monitor these every 6 months or annually.

She was mostly worried about my other breast, where she saw a post-surgical hematoma and a seroma and extensive scar tissue that she thought could be obscuring a malignant lesion. She said I should consider a biopsy of that area, especially if the margins upon removal of my cancerous tumor had not been negative (they were). She said that the three other specialists that I am seeing for a second opinion at her institution and their tumor board could take a look and "battle it out" in terms of whether or not I should have further radiation and what to do for follow-up on the findings from the Breast MRI she had read. 

Now, six months post-op lumpectomy with IORT and two months post-chemo, I am not only worried about getting clarity on whether or not I am cancer free, but how this is delaying my treatment and specifically my starting an aromatase inhibitor, which I definitely think makes sense and about which there has been a unanimous consensus among all of the breast and cancer specialists I have seen. In terms of further radiation - WBRT which was my first question to be answered by the second opinion team, the breast surgeon I consulted with said definitely not and the radiation oncologist said almost definitely yes.

I would really appreciate feedback on other people's screening and monitoring experiences. I recall reading about or getting feedback from one woman whose supposedly benign masses being monitored wound up to be cancer. I wondered if anyone has done monitoring every 3 months.

My diagnosis is IDC, Stage IIb, specifically T2 (2.4 cam) NO (i+) (isolated tumor cells found in 1 of 2 biopsied nodes) MO (no metastases) ER+, PR-, HER-2/neu - with a proliferation index of intermediate rate by Mib-1/Ki67 = 25 % and a grade of 2/3 = intermediate differentiation.  Lumpectomy with Intraoperative Radiation 11/11.

My OncotypeDx score was 31 - high intermediate, and an estimated average rate of 20% for distant recurrence at 10 years, which led to the recommendation that I have chemotherapy (I finished four cycles of Cytoxan and Taxotere in early March).

4/27/12 posting

I had a suspicious mammogram last September during my annual screening and was called in for a f/u ultrasound on suspicious findings. I had had several repeat mammograms in the past for questionable masses, as my breasts are very fibrous. I had also complained to my PCP and gynos in the past about lumps, which they always said were just fibrous breast tissue, and discouraged me from doing regular self-exam, which was probably not such a great idea.

This time, I was told by the radiologist who did the f/u US, that it was "some kind of cancer", then had a biopsy by US, which they used for pre-op staging (said my IDC tumor was no more than 13 mm at its widest margin). They presumed me to be stage one, recommended a lumpectomy with newly approved intra-operative radiation IORT, stating that it would be just as good as WBRT, which I could avoid. Unfortunately, my tumor turned out to be 2.4 cm, and I subsquently learned - six months post-op - that their assurances that IORT had equivalent outcomes to Whole Breast Radiation were not quite accurate, in that the procedure was so new, they only had outcomes data 5 years out and nothing beyond.

I got lots of different recommendations for my post-op screening - MRI and/or mammogram, alternating MRI and Mammogram every six months or annually. So I went for a breast MRI at six months. The findings, which included a new 7 mm mass detected in my good breast, were incredibly vague - didn't meet basic American Academy of Radiology standards for Breast MRI interpretation - with f/u recommendation for a "second-look" US and an US guided core biopsy if there were suspicious findings on the US.

I found this very confusing. I had decided to have the breast MRI in lieu of the mammogram for two reasons. One being that it involves no radiation and two because I thought it was both more sensitive and specific. Well, guess what, it is more sensitive - more able to detect tumors and accurately estimate their size, but not at all specific, especially for small lesions, i.e. they are very blurry with poor discrimination between benign and malignant tumors.

So, I went back to both my surgeon and a breast radiology specialist to ask why I had an MRI if I was now being told to go backwards in sensitivity with an US for a second look and subsequent biopsy. The response I got initially was that it was "easier" and that US was what was "typically done." But then I got feedback that breast MRI discrimination capacity - distinguishing between benign and malignant - is poor. It's also more expensive and more difficult to do an MRI-guided core biopsy (I'm not even sure how they logistically do it, but I will let you know, as I may be having one soon). This is because with Breast MRI, the woman lays on her stomach with her breasts hanging down to the floor.

I had to insist against the US and am moving forward with another breast MRI (at another institution) and a MRI guided core biopsy if indicated by the second MRI. I think the US was a worse option, as it's less sensitive and less specific than an MRI. Had I known more accurately the size of my tumor going into surgery last November, I would not have had IORT, as technically I wouldn't have even been eligible for the procedure.

Now, I would rather have an unnecessary biopsy than wait another six months for a cancer to grow and if it is malignant, want to know more reliably its size for more accurate pre-op staging and decision support regarding surgery and associated treatment options.

There is new Breast MRI technology that is much more specific, but doesn't seem available yet, except through clinical trials (and I'm not sure if there are any being conducted currently). The technique was developed by Dr. Charles Springer (Ph.D) at Oregon Health and Science University. It was written up in a November 15th, 2010 NYT article by Denise Grady and there's a published article: Discrimination of Benign and Malignant Breast Lesions by Using Shutter-Speed Dynamic Contrast-enhanced MR Imaging Radiology November 2011 261:2 394-403. Shutter-speed analysis of breast dynamic contrast-enhanced MR imaging data was found to produce 98.6% specificity and 100% sensitivity for a cohort of 92 suspicious lesions.

I would very much like to hear from other women about their experiences and thoughts regarding these questions and issues.

Comments

  • WaveWhisperer
    WaveWhisperer Member Posts: 898
    edited May 2012

    I am in a quandary as well. After a lumpectomy six months ago, four rounds of T/C chemo and 22 whole-breast radiation treatments, I went in last week for what I thought would be a quick follow-up mammogram and breast MRI. The BMRI turned up something suspicious that did not show up on the mammogram, so they then did an ultrasound, which also failed to show anything. Now I'm scheduled for an MRI-guided biopsy on Wednesday. I'm worried and mad. 

  • Cyn0619
    Cyn0619 Member Posts: 63
    edited May 2012

    Hi

    I only had 1 MRI and it was done by my second opinion after I had a lumpectomy and did not get clear margins. My MRI showed I had 3 lesions on "good breast" with vascular involvement. I ended up having 2 mammogram guided biopsies (mammo showed clustered calcifications) a week before surgery. Biopsies came back benign but my surgeon warned me pathology could show cancer after surgery. I decided on Bmx. Luckily no cancer was found on other breast but a lot of pre cancer cells were found. I asked my surgeon what made the MRI light up like that and he said he wasn't sure.



    My dcis on other breast didn't show on mammogram it appeared as lump and showed on ultrasound. I'm sorry I don't know what advice to give you. It seems like all of the testing has flaws. In the end I'm glad I did the BMX because I would be paranoid those cells would form into cancer and not found on my mammogram.



    Wishing you the best of luck. I know how frustrating confusing and stressful all of these tests are. Sorry I can't be of more help.

    Cindy

  • WaveWhisperer
    WaveWhisperer Member Posts: 898
    edited May 2012

    I had my MRI-guided biopsy on Wednesday and got the results yesterday: nothing to worry about, just changes in tissue as a result of radiation.

     I'm relieved, of course, but other friends with BC have said that their surgeons do NOT request breast MRI's after radiation for just that reason.  

  • SelenaWolf
    SelenaWolf Member Posts: 1,724
    edited May 2012
    I was told that I had to wait, at least, six months post-radiation before having any mammograms or MRI's because I would "... light up the films like a firecracker ...", which would, then, be virtually unreadable. 
  • WaveWhisperer
    WaveWhisperer Member Posts: 898
    edited May 2012

    Interesting...I'm surprised my doctors put me through that ordeal. I was upset and worried for 8 days, until I got my results, and the biopsy HURT!! It was a lot more painful than the ultrasound-guided one I had the first time.

  • chelseasanfran
    chelseasanfran Member Posts: 48
    edited May 2012

    Hi everyone, 

    I wanted to update you on the recent situation with my 6 month screening post-lumpectomy with Intraoperative radiation and 4 cycles chemo.  The team where I am going for a comprehensive second opinion on whether to have more radiation and where I had a second Breast MRI is having a battle among the specialists at my expense.  I was scheduled for a f/u MRI guided breast biopsy based on second Breast MRI results at their institution which showed a new mass in the breast where I had the lumpectomy and IORT.  It was cancelled at the last minute by the surgeon consultant (not the surgeon who did my lumpectomy).  This surgeon finally said he didn't do MRIs and that I didn't meet criteria for MRI screening anyway (which I have read that I do).  He said both breasts were "fine", that the radiologists at his institution didn't know what they were talking about, because they are not clinicians. and that I should have a 6 month f/u Mammo on the post-lumpectomy breast and a 12 month f/u Mammo on the other. 

    This is after he had previously told my current medical oncologist that regarding my first 6 month Breast MRI (which showed a mass in my good breast, but nothing in my post-lumpectomy breast) that he agreed with the radiologist from the other institution that did the 1st MRI that I have a f/u "second-look" US and an US biopsy if the US was suspicious.  I was thus really shocked when he said he would do nothing after findings on my second Breast MRI from his institution came back with opposite, but suspicious findings.  I had called him three times and asked the radiologist at his institution to have him call me over a period of two weeks. I only heard back from him when I told the scheduler I was going forward with the MRI guided breast biopsy in two days and that no one at his institution seemed to be in agreement with any of the findings or recommended f/u on the MRI from his hospital or the hospital where I had had my surgery and 1st 6 month screening MRI.

    I am having a follow-up US this week and will advocate for what I think makes sense based on the findings.  I think what I've come to understand is that MRI is much more sensitive, but less specific than US.  This means that while its discrimination capacity may not be very good (i.e. in discriminating between benign and malignant masses), its accuracy in terms of size for masses is much better than Mammograms or Ultrasound.

    I had the wrong type of treatment as a result of not having a pre-op MRI after the Radiologist who did my second look US predicted I had some type of malignant tumor and referred me for a biopsy by US.  The US biopsy noted that my tumor was no more than 13 mm at its widest margin and I was presumed to be Stage I in terms of size and recommended treatment (i.e. IORT).  My tumor turned out to be 2.4 cm and was thus in fact not a candidate for IORT.  Two tumor boards that have since reviewed my case post-op have said that I should have had a pre-op MRI prior to surgery as US is not at all reliable in sizing tumors. 

    So, there are at least two separate issues here and my position remains that I would rather have an unnecessary biopsy than have a malignant tumor go undetected.  They argue against them on the basis that its not just the issue of having unnecessary biopsies, but unnecessary treatment.  I believe this is because they just don't know how to interpret a lot of pathology that is abnormal, but not clearly malignant, because historically they haven't been able to detect tumors or masses at all until they are a certain size.  As for the pain associated with Breast MRIs, both Breast MRIs I had were more painful than the US and US biopsy I had, although the second Breast MRI I had, which was done on different machine than the first was much more painful, but produced much more detailed findings.  I am unclear if this was due to differences in quality of the machines or thoroughness of reading and interpretation of the radiologist. 

    Re: the issue of changes from radiation, with WBRT there is a 1% chance of the radiation (15 day - 3 week or 25 day - 5 week course plus the boost) causing a new cancer.  I don't know about risk of new cancers from IORT, in part because I wasn't adequately informed of all of the side effects before hand or after, but also because no cancer specialist wants to criticize another specialist openly (somewhat like the Mafia's Omerta).  It's one reason why they have tumor boards and why so many institutions implement treatment protocols via tumor boards that are not at all individualized to the specific patient - so that no individual specialist nor institution has to take responsibility for treatment decisions that have bad outcomes that may be due to the medical errors or decisions of one or more individual physicians.

    To WaveWhisperer, all I can say is better certain than sorry.  I would be interested in hearing from you about how the MRI-guided breast biopsy was done, as you have to be on your belly for the Breast MRI.  I also wondered whether it was the surgeon or the radiologist who did it.  I have heard contradictory information about whether it is the surgeon or radiologist who does the MRI -guided core biopsies at the consulting institution I where I am having these issues.  

    There is Breast MRI technology though that addresses these issues, but it's not currently available and has only been used in clinical trials. It may be available at Memorial Sloan Kettering and Columbia University I'm hoping to find places where it's currently being tested and see whether I can be part of a trial using it for screening. It is reviewed in the following article: Discrimination of Benign and Malignant Breast Lesions by Using Shutter-Speed Dynamic Contrast-enhanced MR Imaging Radiology November 2011 261:2 394-403; Published online August 9, 2011, doi:10.1148/radiol.11102413.  Shutter-speed analysis of breast dynamic contrast-enhanced MR imaging data was found to produce 98.6% specificity at 100% sensitivity for a cohort of 92 suspicious lesions. Dr. Charles Springer is the PI at Oregon Health and Science University. 
     

    Here are two links to articles about the new technology from the OHSU website.

    http://www.ohsu.edu/xd/about/news_events/news/2008/breastcancermri110308.cfm?WT_rank=2

    http://www.ohsu.edu/xd/about/news_events/news/2005/02-23-ohsu-scientists-develop.cfm?WT_rank=1

    Chelsea

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