husband's "proposition"

In my world of guys and some gals, I am going to call "bullshit" on you TwistedSteel.  I believe that you are in a very sexual relationship, good for you.  I am too.  I work at it everyday.  Unfortunately, a lot of people couldn't even say orgasm or "fuck" in a sentence today. 

I believe that your man is compassionate in your relationship.  The two of you probably have learned a lot together.  I will admit that I am moderately intrigued by your openess about sex, but I find it juvenile.  Sex is and will always be a tough subject.  And to suggest that any women regardless of her disease status, who has sexual tensions is the one with "sexual hangups" is preposterous to me. 

Twistedsteel, you should feel blessed in your sexual prowness,  I know that I am with mine.  But I must, and I hope that you will agree that we are very lucky in our experiences and our partners.  Sex can be a very baffleing topic.  I will continue to interject, when appropriate.    Good luck to you all, keep the "shine" on and I hope that you all are "getting some" now and then( if you want).

I have to go to bed now.  Minxie, see what a mess you created.  I might be a bit twisted, but I kinda like this discussion.   

MINXIE, I sent you a private message, my thoughts are too personal to share here.  GG

Ok, I will write this in my defense and then be done with this thread simply because I know what is right for ME.

The bible states that it is a sin to commit adultery.  That is why it is ok to divorce.  Have I played a part in the whole mess?  Certainly, but I did not make a conscious decision to cheat on my spouse.  Some history you are not aware of is that this started the first year we were married.  I caught him web camming online sexually.  Years progressed and each time he begged and pleaded that he would never do it again.  Then cancer came, he treated me horribly during it to the point one time I had to drive myself to the hospital because I was sick and he was too pissed off to drive me.  I was told that had I waited 24 hours to come, I would have been dead.  Did he care enough to visit me more than once while I was in the hospital recovering?  No.  I had a double mastectomy and felt different about myself which I believe helped contribute to our distance with each other. 

Then one day he told me "You just have to trust me".  He made me feel awful for not trusting him.  Less than two weeks later I had found out he had been having an affair for over a year with a woman who is 28 years old.  She was old enough to know better but not old enough to give a rat's ass about what she was doing to his family.  And of course he says it was just sex.

Fast forward to two months ago, when I was diagnosed with Stage Five Bone Metasis and was told I had three years to leave, he promised me we would stay together as a family.  We reconciled in all aspects of a marriage...including sex.  Less than two weeks later, I caught him on the way to meeting someone to have another affair with.  I realize now that it is not me, it is him.  He has shown time and time again he has no respect for me and will not take the necessary steps to show me it will not happen again.  He has not even apologized for it.  He believes he did no wrong. 

So I ask, for my kids, do I stay with him and show my kids this is what a relationship is about?

Do I show my daughter that it is ok to continue staying with a man who you love but keeps hurting you and will not stop doing things to hurt you?  Do I show my son it is acceptable to hurt women and treat them this way?   The disrespect is ok?  That the self worth of my whole being is worth less to me than staying with a man who loves his "sex" more than the woman who has had his children and loves him more than any other man alive?  I can tell you despite all the things he has done, I still love this man very much. I have not ever looked at another man in a attractive sense since the day I met my husband.  But I am damaged by the things he has done and all the deceit and betrayal that he gives to me on a daily basis.   He doesn't want to change.  So is my dignity and self respect worth continuing for what little time I have left on this earth worth staying and being unhappy with a man who doesn't love me the same way?

All the things that were described in the original post are what happened to us meaning the mean behaviors, acting suspicious, etc. 

LostOne, I am sorry, very sorry for the difficulties you are going through.  I can see how complicated it all gets.

I mentioned I've been married over 20 years.  We had our ups and downs, but most ups.  We worked through troubles and of course now with a stage iv dx, those troubles seem minor.

I'm not wanting to make anyone feel badly about their situation.  And yet I want to tell you how my husband dealt with things when I learned I had stage iv bc.  

He cried.  He cried for me.  He cried for us.  He was so angry at cancer.  He told me a number of times that it just was not fair that it happened to me.  He took days off from work to take me to treatments.  He helped out even more than usual around the house.  Because I was an emotional mess and didn't want to talk to almost everyone, he handled all the phone calls from friends and relatives, mine and his.  He broke the news to my sisters about the stage iv.  Previously I had handled all the details regarding our health insurance.  I told him it was too emotional for me to make phone calls to straighten some issues out, so for about a year he took over.

Our son was a senior in high school.  We had so many school banquets and programs to attend all during the months I was getting chemo as well as graduation.  We went to all of these things together while also planning the most beautiful graduation party that included 150 guests in our back yard for our wonderful son. 

For six months, I dealt with chemo and its side effects, lost hair, went into menopause, had high anxiety and hot flashes.  We were not intimate for this period of time.  Never once did he ever even bring up the subject of sex.  We both were trying to wrap our minds around this event that changed our lives, while still moving forward with the life we now had/have.

So, imo, that's what real men do. They step up to the plate.  They don't say, hey, so what your world's falling apart, what about me.  

If, during that first six months my husband would have propositioned me that he was thinking of getting some of his needs met elsewhere, like I was some kind of gas station down for remodelling or something, I would have had to ask him to move out.   

Lovehertons - I don't think you were out of line at all, maybe you felt it and you disagreed but except for one itty bitty thing, you showed respeect and empathy toward Twisted Steel.... really he did TwistedSteel.

Minxie - my following thought are for you too.  

LostOne - what a rock and hard place.  Unfortunately your husband has not been the rock.  I cannot advise, no one can.  I can only imagine that going this alone, really alone would be so hard to face, as would going this with someone who continues to hurt you to your soul everyday.  Perhaps perspective comes from your own list-making of the real benefits and nonbenefits in making a decision and in finding your way.  When I realliized I had this health challenge, I asked myself how would I want to spend the last three months, what fights, what fun, what people, what hobbies, what QOL.  I was fortunate I got my memory back when the cancer treatment choices lined up for me (alts) and was able to think it through.  I am not in total bliss in my marriage, but I was definitely able to say I want to be here, right here, safe and loved.  I am so sad that you are facing this ordeal. You will find our way, first your center then your path.

Short short version of a story   ...... Two weeks before a woman's death, her husband of forty-plus years asked her to leave because he did not want her to die in the house.  That is brutal.  We are not facing it, thank goodness none of us are..... but the point is I believe his coldness of heart could probably be seen in the first meeting between the two, still she stayed, wanting something that absolutely he was incapable of giving. 

I am a fortunate woman, my marriage is like that of The Divine Mrs who says that what her husband has done for her and them and their family is what a man who loved does.  My Hubby may screw up or say the wrong thing or drive in a way that causes my adrenaline to beat up my immune system for awhile.  But he has my back.  He said the other day, "I don't know how some men can go off on vacation and leave their wives at home wtih cancer, I can barely stand to leave you alone while I go to work." ......  And I am pretty darn healthy!   But he is there for me.  

I wish no one had less.  You will find your way thoough, you will.  Stay or go, you will find the way to go for what you want.... you say you want a way to show your daughter and son what marriage needed to be.....   and you wonder to yourself, aloud..... """So is my dignity and self respect worth continuing for what little time I have left on this earth worth staying and being unhappy with a man who doesn't love me the same way?"""

I believe with all my heart that if you stay or go, you will find the way to your dignity and self respect, on your terms, you will because it is so important to you, we hear it, and you can do this for yourself. 

Me, I have dignity and self-respect to work toward in other avenues than love.  I am asking myself the same questions in how I deal with life issues important to me.

Minxie, thank you for your honesty and trust in us, opening up like this.  I believe it is how we heal too, it is not all physical and medical to me.

Diane (Essa) 

While I appreciate what twistedsteel wrote and think it unfair to bash her for offering a perspective for the OP to consider when making really important and difficult decisions about her marriage, I also agree that if a husband wants to go he will whether he gets permission to ease his conscience or not. Minxie...i really can't think that taking estrogen against oncs advice is a good plan. Can you guys get some couples counselling to see if you can get things back on track? Very best wishes xxxx

twistedsteel, that's nice of you to say.  I'm not writing in order to brag.  I just want women to know there are decent men out there.  There seem to be more stories on this forum about the guys who abandon their women during this crisis.  It really sucks.  imo, women should not be bending over backwards to keep a selfish, self-centered man.   They should not compromise their health to satisfy the desires of their man.

My husband and I are hanging in there.  During the first few months of this new phase of our lives, I had numerous meltdowns.  I remember my husband saying, "This didn't happen to you.  It happened to us." And I had to realize the depth of what he was saying.  

Oh yea, canser is a bitch.  It effing sucks.  I was one who really deeply appreciated my blessings large and small and gave thanks to God many, many times before bc.  I didn't  need this as a wake up call or to get my priorities in order. I still ride the emotional roller coaster altho for now the dips are not so low as in the beginning.  This forum is great therapy.

Oh Minxie I am so sorry. You sound like you feel that the world is crashing down on you. I hope that after you cry a bit, you will get some of the emotions out and will feel a little calmer. Maybe there are some herbal (non Rx) remedies that might mimic the estrogen. 

But remember that is only one avenue of help (and you are not even totally sure it WOULD help).  I agree with Joanne - call your treatment center and see if they have counseling available. I went to the cancer psychologist at mine - she was awesome. ONLY dealt with cancer patients and she REALLY got it.  

In fact, I brought my DH a few times with me when I needed to work something out and it really was effective. 

There ARE resources out there. Do not give up. Let us know how you are doing.

Sending love and peaceful energy to you.

Amy 

PS I never knew you could refuse a PAP.I guess I am a compliant patient at heart. They say "spread 'em' and I just follow along! 

Wow......., talk about a dog with a bone! How many ways can you say it?

I feel for you. I also feel for your husband. When he says he wants you to be excited, what he is saying is that he wants you to be as excited about being intimate with him as he is with you. He still finds you hot and sexy. It is YOU who doesn't think you are hot and sexy. The idea of testosterone is a really good one. It's a cream you put on your inner thigh and it works. You guys need a good therapist to help you get the elephant out of the bedroom, ie, CANCER. Do not  make any decisions until you are certain you have given this your all. There is no way that an outside sexual relationship will be healthy. It will hurt everyone. My love and prayers to you both.

No need to EVER apologize. This is where we come when we are hurting. I have done it many times. It is our safe place, our place to be understood and welcomed, tears, pain and all.

Glad you are feeling calmer. I can imagine your husband might not be eager to discuss his 'proposition' in counseling, BUT maybe you could frame it that you want to talk about the situation that LED to the proposition, not just the proposition itself. Because the larger picture is what really needs to be helped, right? 

minxie...I read this thread this morning...and you are on my mind.  If I can offer up my own two cents here...

There are no right answers.  There is no solution that is acceptable, that meets some criteria of what is okay by societal standards (or if there is, it is irrelevant).  The issue here, the real question in a marriage, I think...is this:  does moving forward meet your needs and wishes (including your needs for those you love, particularly your children)?  It has nothing to do with what anyone ELSE might be willing to live with.

Whatever anyone here has to say, you will have to decide for yourself if this marriage is what you want and can live with.

My husband has never cheated on me, nor has he ever sought permission to have sex with anyone else.  He has, however, continuously sought out porn.  It has always driven me insane.  I feel like he is having sex with some image he has seen, rather than me.  Whenever he and I have confronted the issue, he says "it's not like I cheated on you..."  And I had to say...so what?  We aren't talking about what is acceptable to somebody else...we are talking about our marriage and our two selves. 

I think that it is unreasonable for your husband to disregard your option of divorce, but be unwilling to move forward on marriage on your terms.  There seems to be some kind of manipulative control thing that is going on between you.

I reached a point with my husband where I said divorce was the only option because he was unwilling to move forward on marriage on the terms I could live with.  What is interesting is that once I decided I wanted divorce, both he and I began to address each other as separate individuals.  We were both utterly surprised to find that we could find terms we could accept.  Oddly, the resentments seem to have left since we basically renegotiated from scratch.

I think counseling is an absolutely essential step for you to take.  I hope that you can both approach it together.  If you cannot, at the very least, counseling will help you stay afloat.

I don't know if any of this is really relevant for your situation...but I wanted to speak up as someone who has faced similar struggles.  I think it is just so important to not worry about what others are willing to accept in a husband and instead focus on what you yourself are willing to accept in a husband.

I hope you are feeling calmer and stronger now and that you and your husband can move forward in a way that protects your self.

My warmest regards,

Claire

JMW

You contributed that comment here, publicly? Solely about me? That was your contribution to the topic? Please, if you have a beef with me and only me, PM me instead of trying to publicly insult me.



TS