husband's "proposition"

What about getting couples sex therapy?  I have a friend that was in a similiar boat to you...(except no cancer)...but she had completely lost her sex drive.  A sex therapist can give you lots of great ideas to help bring that back mentally for you.  (since this sounds like more of a mental road block for you than physical).

This is a really complicated situation. I have always felt it is a form of emotional abuse to tell a spouse that for the rest of their life -  "No sex from me, but you can't get it anywhere else either."  (Sorry if that is painful to you.) 

I know a man whose wife 'shut down' several years ago. (not cancer related) He says they are very compatible and have a great marriage in all other ways. He speaks very respectfully of her, they get along, good family, it all works. To deal with it, he has a no-strings, non-emotional sexual relationship outside the marriage - NOT dating, romance, flowers, all that stuff. Just sex, sort of like a good massage with release. I hate to be crass about it. But she has no idea and I don't know how she would feel if she did. (I don't know her.) I don't know if it is the best way of managing it but it seems to work for them. Are there risks? Absolutely.  And having a deceptive element in your marriage (and him having some degree of a secret life) is not the best thing either. But it seems like in their situation, there IS no 'best.' Anything is choosing between less-than-optimum choices.

I will say this - two months is a VERY short time.  I would not make ANY major decisions or draw any conclusions from that time period. Things may/can change. You may be able to use some toys and see if that helps you. (Again, I'm sorry if this is too blunt, but you did ask a pretty blunt question.) Maybe your sex life can evolve into something that works (to some degree) for both of you, not perfectly but adequate, with compromises on all sides.  Again, not to be crude, but maybe some alcohol or 420 would help.

You say you want him to love/desire you. It seems to me from your letter that he DOES.  But you are also saying that you do not desire him. So that puts him in an endless loop of frustration, wanting something he can't have.  

Cancer steals from all of us - in different ways.  Whether it is mental, physical, emotional, sexual or a lovely combo package of all of them - none of us come away unchanged or unscathed. I would HATE for a good solid marriage to be added to the list of things that cancer has stolen.

I echo  Susan's advice about a counselor - it might help, who knows.  And I really encourage you to try everything you can before divorce. I don't know if you've been through it, but it is a true heartbreak.

I know this post is all over the place and I sincerely hope none of it has been hurtful or offensive to you.  Please feel free to PM me if you have any questions or want to discuss further in private.

I am glad you have this forum to share your feelings and get some support. Maybe something good & helpful will come out of it. I hope so.

Amy 

I just got home and re-read my post to you.  Although I still stand by what I said.....(that its complete and utter BS that you have to deal with this crap, on top of what you are already going through),  I apologize for rambling on about my life and my situation.  You came here to seek advice from us, not to listen (read) about my marriage.  I don't know what I was thinking....it was pretty selfish.  Either way, good luck to you, stand strong, and do what you need to do to enrich your marriage and keep your family together......

I am gonna go far far out on a limb here and be blunt.



When women say they don't UNDERSTAND men, throw up their hands and feel exasperated, I think what we really mean is, we judge the way men, as a whole, seem to be as less than, or bad, or stupid, or discourteous. We are judging them in the verbal guise of "not understanding them".



Men want to feel appreciated. They want to feel desired. They want their woman to feel like a "nympho" as someone put it, when we see them. They want a simple drama free life. They want to feel smart and handsome and creative. They want sex. They want to support their family financially. They want sex. They want sex. They masturbate. But that is not like sex with their woman. The one they feel most accepted by, most appreciated by, the closest to and attached to. Fantasy women are the ones they imagine other times.



When your man comes home, he wants to feel (not necessarily hear) your love, understanding, devotion, attachment, appreciation. They want to feel like you can't wait to be intimate w them in any way you two like to be intimate. They want to fed emotionally, physically (food, good food and lots of it), mentally and spiritually... And sexually. A large part of their self esteem comes from how they feel sexually. Judging that as insensitive, wrong, evil, selfish, or anything other than wonderful... Well it kills a little bit of who he is as your husband and as a man.



I know, boy, do I know, how the instapause and the hormone sucking pills make sex.... Well, just not part of our everyday thinking. I had issues with it. My MO gave me Estring and it has been wonderful. For many reasons. Sexual AND I don't feel like my vagina is going to dry up, fall out and blow away. Oh, and the urinary weirdness has gone away. It has estrogen in it. But is thought to only affect the local cells in the pubic area. My MO tests my estrogen and FSH levels and says, clearly, the Estring is not increasing estrogen.



I am of the opinion that a women who both has physical issues, like cancer treatment, and mental desire issues and doesn't seek remedy for physical stuff as soon as marital problems rear their head, has some serious resentments built up with her husband. Resentment is what kills the emotional part of any relationship. Period. Whether a friend, lover, spouse or child. If you have resentments whether you consciously know it or not, the relationship suffers. Think honestly back on every relationship gone wrong. Resentment is what wrecked it. One way or another. Long term relationships have to have a resentment management process. Whether conscious or not.



So to anyone in this position, I would say (and I did formerly work as a psychotherapist) get the resentments out on paper and deal with them somehow. You don't have to tell him what they are... You can just take a close look and see how you contributed to them and deal with that issue inside yourself. Pray about it, if that's what you do, talk to a nonjudgmental person about it, however you exorcise resentments. Then get doc's to try some alternative stuff for you.



Please don't let sex die if your husband wants it. He must feel attractive to feel loved. He must. Or he will become surly and maybe more prone to wandering or open to a women who thinks he's sexy and attractive and shows it.



Please don't lambast me for this. I hate how many men I know who have "great marriages" other than sex. And I hate how many end up cheating or divorcing over sex.



And this is not directed to OP, but to any woman I our cancer situation who is sexless w an unhappy husband.

Are you on antidepressants? Only reason why in asking is apparently Wellbutrin increases libido in some patients and its not just a rare instance. If you are on something anyway maybe this will help, and at least there is no estrogen. Just a suggestion and i know that i really know nothing of your tx except for what is posted above.

Wellbutrin cannot be taken with ER/PR+ cancer patients taking Tamoxifen, but I do believe the Minxie (the original poster) is triple negative??  I was on Wellbutrin a few years back and yes, it definitely did increase my libido and we couldn't believe it.....  It was almost comical!!    Anyway, that changed after about 9 months (when my body apparently got "used to" the drug) and then it was back to the same ol' same ol'.  But it was fun while it lasted! 

Twistedsteel  -  Everything you said is very true and thank you for your candor. I do understand and appreciate the importance of sex in a marriage and how important it is to a man's overall well-being.  I have dealt with this issue in my marriage for quite a long time and we have managed to work through it pretty well. 

But......Maybe someday when I'm finished working full-time, raising our three school aged children to become responsible, productive citizens, and running them to and fro, maintaining a household that runs smoothly and efficiently, trying to recover from chemotherapy, a bilateral mastectomy with immediate reconstruction and then radiation treatments, I'll take the time to make my husband feel desirable and wanted, but until then, he needs to "man-up" and get over it.  

A marriage goes through many "seasons".....Some of us are in the "season" of raising our children, which is hard enough on a marriage.   Throw a cancer diagnosis on top of that and it really gets complicated.......No woman going through this should EVER get shit from her husband regarding his sexual wants or needs, let alone proposing he sleep with other women??   Absolute insanity.  

Wow, this is going to be tough.  First of all, I am a 45 year old highly successful man with egotistical, narcissistic and possibly oedipus issues.  I would really like to get into a deep in- depth discussion about what men want, but it isn't possible.  I know a lot of them and 98% of them couldn't handle most of the previous replies.  Please, do not misconstrue(sp?) that as meaning that they are all simple.  If you will allow, I will break it down.  And yes, I am talking about our unending desire for sex.

Did any of you find Bobby Fischer sexy?  How about Spock?  For some of you more mature women, how about Bob Newhart?  No, all right maybe a few of you.  But most of you wanted Mel Gibson, Sam Malone, or Bruce Willis,  your definition of a "smart sexy guy" was Alan Alda in M*A*S*H( a major player, or was he a captain player)  Lets face it ladies, you created us.  We bought fast cars, beat our heads in as football players, learned how to dance, or even more devious learned how to charm the panties off of a nun(  It isn't going to get less blunt).  You had the "holy grail"  and it was "your" choice to let us come to drink from it.

Anyway, I am tired and I can't give away all of the keys to what makes us think in one night,  I will lose my "man-card".  Minxie,  I am calling bulls**t, on your husband.  He is playing you, and using the cancer card to step out.....that's my call and I will stick to it.  Hell, I can't blame him, he has read this forum and has seen what other women that don't want to have sex anymore have said.  I would love to have the comfort of a relationship and still be able to test the waters( we will talk about the rollercoaster theory later). 

If he really needs to get "off".  Just curious here, could he have sex with you everytime you wanted to?  Just a theory, but I bet he "needs" sex about 3-4 times a week?  Tell him you will watch as he masterbates to some internet porn.  I can recommend some sites that wont blow up your computer.  Help him if you can for a very nice intimate experience that doesn't require sex "from you"

This reply took alot out of me.  I am not a shallow man, but I am all man.  I would love to let you all know how a man thinks, but it is a lot more complicated than it looks.  Rip me up for my post here tonight,  I will be back as I reallly like the "banter"  Unfortunately, Minxie this is real for you right now, therefore, I hope I haven't alienated you.  You are in a  tough spot right now, I would like to help, but I am not a marriage counselor. 

 Good night all,  Pat

lovehertons ~ Regarding the masturbation comment...that is one of the suggestions the sex therapists give.  I applaud you for being brave enough to add your opinion here.

Twistedsteel, i think your post did answer the op and was very considered and supportive. I did not read it as give in or give up....it doesn't matter that you have bc just give him the sex he needs even if he's a jerk. It is tough stuff to read though! It hurt me a lot because it high lighted some very simple truths xx

Just a few pages on our site that may be helpful:

http://www.breastcancer.org/tips/intimacy/changes.jsp 

http://www.breastcancer.org/tips/intimacy/loss_of_libido/ 

http://www.breastcancer.org/tips/intimacy/beyond.jsp 

Playing devils advocate here... Again, please don't bash me... Just some things I have thought about in my life and think are good things to ponder. And if you have hated everything I've said here before, now is the time to delete or skip my post. It is not for the sqeamish. Seriously. Deep internal assessment may be in order. Stop please if you can't go there.



We take marriage vows that are about good times and bad, sickness and health rich and poor... The standard kinds of vows and then there is the vow about marital sexual fidelity. Right?



And our culture and society virtually world over sees that marital sexual infidelity is a deal breaker. Divorce is acceptable when there has been marital sexual infidelity.



Now here's the kicker. If we say we would be there whether his pecker fell off or he lost all his money (poorer) or he became very ill, or that things just were bad (bad times). How is it that we don't stay through marital sexual infidelity? Is that one single vow hugely more important than the others?



If so, why is that one the litmus test? Why will we deal with financial devastation, health deterioration, just plain old unhappiness? And some say their marriage GREW STRONGER as a result of working through these problems.



But marital sexual infidelity is something we run from.



Would you run if your spouse made horrible investment choices and lost your entire retirement? (not using "you" to refer to one person but referring to a general group) Would you leave over him becoming sick or disabled... Just because he became sick or disabled? What I am reading here is that NO, you would stay and deal with things.



So why is sexual fidelity worse or more grievous than financial ruin, complete lack of mutual respect and intolerable resentment, or life altering health issues?



Again, I have spent a lot of time thinking about these issues and thoughts in my own life. I have come to my own conclusions and guidelines for me in my situation. Please do not flame me for asking the question. It helped me sort things out in my situation.

I think it really depends on how you view sex. For me, sex has always been more than the physical act. It contains a huge emotional component. I know some, maybe most men, can view it as purely physical but for me that would be too much of a betrayal of the most intimate nature. If I were unable to have sex due to cancer, I would expect my husband to deal with this in a way that did not betray me. Of course, I am not married at this time so I'm not writing from experience. I still have the desire for intimacy but no partner. A problem of a different sort! Caryn

Ok, input from the male side.  I agree with TheDivineMrsM men definately tend to move towards the younger side of things as we get older.  I still have Jamie Lee Curtis on my "list of 5"  I think that is a "Friends" reference, maybe some of you can help me out with this.  (It is a reference to 5 people that we would never have a shot with, but if for some reason the planets line up and this person presented herself then My wife and I have given each other the "okay")  BTW she has people like  Randy Couture, Christian Bale, Jason Aldeen, Matt Damon, and Darrin Criss.  

I get sidetracked often.  Twisted Steel I like the way you present things.  I agree Sexual infidelity should never be a reason for a divorce but it isn't the sex that destroys the marriage.  These are the steps that tore my first marriage apart.

1) The affair is rarely only about the "sex".  Even for the man, we must expose a part of our inner being for the affair to progress.  We(men and women) do not have affairs with people the find boring and unattractive.  Therefore, we are entering into a relationship with the other person.

2)  This relationship ( and now I will include the non-sexual affairs)  take away from our prior relationship.  We devote time to this relationship, we spend less time with our significant others and our families.  This results in a form of jealosy.  The "cheater" is having fun and is in an exciting "new" relationship.  It is still hidden, but the subconscious mind of the "cheatee" is starting to put the pieces together.

3)Ok so your subconscious mind knows whats going on and you may even start the internal questions.  What makes Him/her more attractive both physically/personality than me.  We begin to ask the questions that we haven't had to ask ourselves since High school.  Why am I ugly?  What can I do to get my mate to come back?  And yet we are still trying to convince ourselves that nothing is going on.

4)We ask the question to our spouse, "are you having an affair?".  I would bet that less than <10% admit on the first presentation of this question.  So now, we become detectives.  We do things that only the most insecure of our friends would do, we snoop.  We delve into the Emails, we check their phones, we become little "moles" in the relationship. 

5) We get the answer and the "battle" begins.  And who do you think the cheater makes out as the bad person, you guessed.  "we drove them to do it", "we lost our passion", "I can't be with someone like you who has lost their zeal for life"  not to mention that " You did what.....you looked at my personal e-mails, my phone.....what kind of person does that?

This is why an affair is a little different than financial loss, or illness.  An affair, will tear you to your knees.  It will destroy you as a person, and the whole time you are at a loss to whom you should confide in, you spouse is bending the ear of some "two-bit whore" or a "wife stealing prick". 

That was a bit of a rant.  Its been 7 years since my first wife stepped out on me.  As you can tell, it still stings a bit. 

 To Lostone and all the others who have been betrayed, my deepest condolences to you and may you find "you" again.  I truly believe that I was a bit at fault for my ex-wife's unhappiness, but I don't think I held a gun to her head and told her to start dating my best friend. 

BTW MInxie- I don't believe that estrogen alone will help your asexualness.  We all need to feel wanted for us to feel "sexy".   This comes from within, but it is near impossible if our mate is not pumping us up. 

And lastly, I bit of a disclaimer.  I have not always been faithful to to the one I am with.  I am not proud of it, but I do think it helps me understand why one steps out.