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  • orange1
    orange1 Member Posts: 930
    edited March 2012

    Some more information on mistletoe as a cancer treatment - from the British Medical Journal.

    I thought it was interesting.

    Mistletoe as a treatment for cancer

    BMJ 2006; 333 doi: 10.1136/bmj.39055.493958.80 (Published 21 December 2006) Cite this as: BMJ 2006;333:1282

    1. Edzard Ernst, professor of complementary medicine (Edzard.Ernst@pms.ac.uk)

    Author Affiliations

    1. 1Department of Complementary Medicine, Peninsula Medical School, Universities of Exeter and Plymouth, Exeter EX2 4NT

    Has no proved benefit, and can cause harm

    Most doctors in the United Kingdom will be surprised to learn from a case reported in this week's BMJ of a use for mistletoe (Viscum album) that has nothing to do with Christmas.1 Some patients with cancer inject themselves with extract of mistletoe in the hope of improving their condition. In continental Europe, at least 30 different mistletoe preparations are available. In Europe, most cancer patients use such extracts, at a total expense of about £30m (€45m; $59m) each year,2 and in Germany the insurance system pays for this treatment.

    A Google search (20 November 2006) showed that 145 000 websites promote or mention mistletoe as a treatment for cancer. This much publicity may mean that many cancer patients in the UK will try mistletoe in the future or ask their doctor about it. It is therefore timely to discuss the value of mistletoe as an anticancer drug.

    A century ago, Rudolf Steiner developed anthroposophy, a school of thought that led to innovations such as the Waldorf schools, biodynamic farming, and anthroposophic medicine. This approach to healthcare is based on intuitive thinking about assumed associations between four postulated dimensions of the human body (physical body, etheric body, astral body, and ego), plants, minerals, and the cosmos.3

    Anthroposophic medicine includes drugs, art therapy, rhythmic massages, special exercises, external applications, counselling, and anthroposophic nursing. These treatments are used "partly as adjuncts to and partly as substitutes for conventional medicine."4 Anthroposophic drugs are based on ancient alchemistic and homeopathic notions, far removed from the concepts of pharmacology. Many of these drugs are produced in unusual ways-some mistletoe preparations are fermented while other anthroposophic drugs are highly diluted according to homeopathic principles.

    Steiner's intuition that mistletoe might help treat cancer is based on the fact that, like cancer, mistletoe is a parasitic growth that eventually kills its host. Inspired by Hahnemann's "like cures like" principle, he believed that an extract of mistletoe would cure cancer. Despite the implausibility of this idea, about 1000 in vitro studies have shown that mistletoe or its main constituents (alkaloids, lectins, and viscotoxins) do have anticancer activity.2 5 However, many plants have some sort of anticancer activity.6 Occasionally, this is useful therapeutically-vinblastine and vincristine are derived from the common periwinkle and Taxol comes from the yew tree. In most cases though, toxicity or lack of bioavailability prohibit the use of these compounds.

    Proponents of anthroposophic medicine make two claims about mistletoe. Firstly, they claim that regular injections of mistletoe extract improve the natural course of cancer by slowing down or stopping tumour growth. Secondly, they say that such extracts improve the quality of life in patients with cancer.4

    Many clinical studies of mistletoe exist, but their findings are inconsistent. Most of them are methodologically weak, and the less rigorous they are the greater the likelihood of a positive result. The conclusions of systematic reviews are therefore contradictory. Anthroposophical doctors, who tend to include unreliable primary studies, arrive at positive conclusions.4 In contrast, independent reviewers tend to focus on the most reliable evidence and regularly find that neither of the above two claims is supported by good evidence.7 8 9

  • orange1
    orange1 Member Posts: 930
    edited March 2012

    The rest of the abstract:

    In this week's BMJ, Finall and colleagues report a case of subcutaneous inflammation mimicking metastatic malignancy induced by injection of mistletoe.1 So how safe is this treatment? A wide range of serious adverse reactions have been noted, such as local reactions at the site of injection, anaphylaxis, dyspnoea, haemorrhagic colitis, herpes simplex, herpes zoster, joint pain, kidney failure, lymphangiitis, parasthesias, sarcoidosis, ulceration, and vertigo (Saller R. Zu den unerwuenschten Nebenwirkungen von Mistelpraeparaten. Drittens Mistelsymposium Otzenhausen, 20-22 November 2003).10

    Findings from in vitro studies suggest that mistletoe extract may enhance the proliferation of some cancers.11 In addition, some patients with cancer may use mistletoe as an alternative to conventional treatments for cancer, rather than just a complementary treatment.

    The claim frequently voiced by proponents of anthroposophic medicine-that mistletoe injections have no serious risks4-is therefore misleading.

    Thus, mistletoe has been tested extensively as a treatment for cancer, but the most reliable randomised controlled trials fail to show benefit, and some reports show considerable potential for harm. The costs of regular mistletoe injections are high. I therefore recommend mistletoe as a Christmas decoration and for kissing under but not as an anticancer drug. At the risk of upsetting many proponents of alternative medicine, I also contend that intuition is no substitute for evidence.

  • Hindsfeet
    Hindsfeet Member Posts: 2,456
    edited March 2012

    Orange, interesting article on mistletoe. I've never heard of it as an alternative cancer treatment.

    Tuckertwo, I agree in chemo/herceptin doesn't cure cancer. The reason for me to consider herceptin is that it locks down the her2+ receptors and flags the immune killer cells for distruction. I'm just not sure if I need to do it for a year as more studies need to be done for those who are early stage cancer.

    There is so much that we don't understand, and unfortunately there are no guarantees no matter what we do.

  • suzieq60
    suzieq60 Member Posts: 6,059
    edited March 2012

    Eve - what do you think when you read about hillck's experience? Her cancer totally disappeared with chemo/herceptin. How can you say it can't cure cancer? It stories like hers that give me faith in those drugs. Don't forget taxol/taxotere come from the Pacific Yew tree - a plant.

  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Member Posts: 1,376
    edited March 2012

    susieq,

    Herceptin and chemo don't cure cancer. Remission is not a cure.

    Unless the underlying problem is addressed the cancer will return. Chemo does not repair the immune system, rather, it destroys it. Herceptin has not got a track record yet. They don't know what it will do in 10, 15 or 20 yrs. Shrinking a tumor does not mean the cancer won't be back.

    Cancer cells become immortal because they don't have an off switch. I have known two women in the past few months who's breast cancer was in remission for 28 and 15 yrs, but it came back. If the doctors have anything to say about it, their treatment will consist of poison, cut and burn. The usual.

    tucker

  • Hindsfeet
    Hindsfeet Member Posts: 2,456
    edited March 2012

    Susie, I didn't know there was a cancer cure. I've known more bc women who went through treatment who were not cured than cured. I've known more who went through herceptin/chemo whose cancer progressed. For those who are early stage, we don't know if the treatment worked or surgery took care of the cancer cells as 75% of stage one is cured by surgery. And from what I understand until they discover how to kill cancer stem cells ... cancer can't be killed or erradicated.

    With that said, I hope the medical establishment comes up with more targeted therapies, and study more alternative treatments.

  • suzieq60
    suzieq60 Member Posts: 6,059
    edited March 2012

    I know it's not a cure but when you see complete pathological response, obviously it's doing something.

  • sweetbean
    sweetbean Member Posts: 1,931
    edited March 2012

    Mistletoe is not generally used in Germany as a replacement for chemo, but in conjunction with it.  It is supposed to reduce side effects and boost the efficacy of the chemo (or attack the cancer cells on its own terms.)  Anyway, it's generally given with chemo.  Orange, the reaction that you described sounds scarier than it is.  It's just a welt, similar to the welt you get when you get an allergy shot.  It's just your body acknowledging that something new has been introduced to the system.  Like I said on the other thread, I am going to start mistletoe for a year starting in April to coincide with the end of my Herceptin in May.   On the alt side, I'm also doing LDN, homeopathy, supplements, qigong/yoga, meditation.  On the conventional side, I am taking Tamoxifen.   

  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Member Posts: 1,376
    edited March 2012

    Susieq, I see in your tagline, 2nd dx ? and you went through chemo, rads and herceptin twice ? herceptin did not prevent 2nd dx ? nor did chemo and rads ?

  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Member Posts: 1,376
    edited March 2012

    Sweetbean, what you're doing looks great !  what homeopahic dilutions are you using ?

  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Member Posts: 1,376
    edited March 2012

    Mistletoe will cause a small hive or welt and that's good. That means that it's working and your immune system is dealing with it. You may get a low fever and that's good too.  If that welt doesn't appear after an infusion or pill of mistletoe then the doctor might consider stopping it. The hive is like a mosquito bite, no big deal.

    sweetbean, good for you, going this route. My naturopath said they have seen complete remissions and longer survival times with mistletoe. I have a friend on another website who has been taking mistletoe for years and is doing well - she is also her2+. She lives in the Netherlands and says her doc won't give her herceptin because 'it makes women sick'.

    I agree with you that research needs to focus on breast stem cells.

    tucker

  • suzieq60
    suzieq60 Member Posts: 6,059
    edited March 2012

    Maud - I only did chemo/herceptin once. The second dx was for a tumour in the other breast that was a totally different pathology and was missed when the first one was diagnosed. It was not HER2 and was a lower grade, however it was of a type that is usually found in lots of lymph nodes and it seems the chemo for the first one may have lowered it's grade and stopped it spreading.

  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Member Posts: 1,376
    edited March 2012

    Well, I wish I had your confidence in chemo, you mean you still have the tumour in your other breast ?

    It's a good thing I don't believe in statistics otherwise I'd be pulling my hair out....

    "The overall contribution of curative and adjuvant cytotoxic chemotherapy to 5-year survival in adults was estimated to be 2.3% in Australia and 2.1% in the USA" 

  • suzieq60
    suzieq60 Member Posts: 6,059
    edited March 2012

    Maud ????? Why would I still have the other one - it was removed immediately - it was only 5mm and did not require any other treatment except for radiation.

  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Member Posts: 1,376
    edited March 2012

    Glad for you - I find this whole business so scary, I might have another or other tumours, problem is they've not found them yet

  • suzieq60
    suzieq60 Member Posts: 6,059
    edited March 2012

    Maud - it was recommended I have a BMX but I chose not to, as I wanted to give the Arimidex a chance to do it's thing. Of course if I was ever to get a new primary I'd now have no choice. I have had a clear MRI/mammo and u/s a year after the second surgery so that's good. I was very angry when the second one was found but on reflection I'm glad as I've avoided major surgery. I know they would have made me do the BMX if they had both been found at the same time.

  • Heidihill
    Heidihill Member Posts: 5,476
    edited March 2012

    This was posted in the Clinical Trials and Research News Forum

    http://www.onclive.com/onclive-tv/Dr-Chang-Discusses-Combining-HER2-Targeted-Therapies

    Dr. Chang talks about the combination of Herceptin (trastuzumab) and Tykerb (lapatinib) without chemo producing a high rate of pathological complete response and the addition of Femara for ER+ with goserelin for premenopausal women.

  • dalila
    dalila Member Posts: 3
    edited June 2012

    I am also HER2+ and I am doing alternative treatment. My tumor is 0.8. Do I need chemo? or just herceptin? anyone did it?

    one onc said 4 chemos + herceptin for a year?

    second opinion onc: herceptin for a year

  • lago
    lago Member Posts: 17,186
    edited June 2012

    Dalila it's difficult to say with a smaller tumor. There are many other things to consider too. Your age, hormone status of your tumor, grade (HER2+ is usually 3 but there are plenty of women here that are grade 2 as well).

    I do know that the studies show that Herceptin seems to work better with chemo. It doesn't mean that Herceptin alone won't work at all but seems to be more effective with chemo.

    What rationale did your oncs give you for their recommendations?

    The NCI has recommendations but they are only recommendations and it is  up to your onc to help you understand your specific disease and risk and recommend a treatment course.  The NCI recommend chemo/herceptin for tumors larger than 1cm. For tumors smaller than .51-1cm herceptin and possible chemo. (See page 74)

  • Alicethecat
    Alicethecat Member Posts: 535
    edited June 2012

    Hi Barbiecorn

    Have a look at http://www.predict.nhs.uk/

    This will show you how much of an advantage chemo offers...You know my thoughts on this. I'm going for it with HER2+ but over to you!

    Best wishes

    Alice the Cat 

  • dalila
    dalila Member Posts: 3
    edited June 2012

    Thank you lago for your response. I am grade 3, ER+ 90%, PR-, age 54, no sentinal node removed.

    Will see my onc on Tusday again :(

  • lago
    lago Member Posts: 17,186
    edited June 2012

    Dalila if you have completed menopause then your oncs will  probably recommend one of the aromatase inhibitors. If not or you have some other medical issues s/he will recommend Tamoxifen. I have read a few articles stating that HER2+ doesn't always respond to Tamoxifen and those who have low/PR- also don't respond. These were only a few studies so I don't know if the information is accurate but also something to discuss with the onc.

    Typically those who have high proliferation rates, high grade tumors tend to respond well to chemo.

    So why no sentinel?

  • dalila
    dalila Member Posts: 3
    edited June 2012

    lago: they did recomend aromatase inhibitor, but it also has so many side effects... What does it mean high grade tumors?

    did not want to destroy immune system(sentinal node) and my natural doc recomended to keep it.

  • lago
    lago Member Posts: 17,186
    edited June 2012

    Dalila I started Anastrozole March 1, 2011. I have a little stiffness and an occasional warm flash when I eat too much Cayenne pepper… that's it. We are watching my bones but so far no issues. I was very afraid to take this drug too. Even more afraid than chemo but I figured I'd give it a try. I figured I could always quit but if I never tried it I would never know.

    I am only 30% ER+ and 5% PR+. In your case, being 90% PR+ I would think one of the aromatase inhibitors might be more important than chemo for you. Your onc should be able to help you understand the significance of this treatment for you.

    I haven't heard anything about sentinel node dissection destroying the immune system. I seem to be doing fine. Had a SNB on the right and 10 nodes on the left. Do have some minor LE on the left but so far no issues with infections. Granted everyone is different.

    Again these are all things you should discuss in detail with your onc. Don't be afraid to ask "why" and if you don't understand see if they can provide you with more information.

    Good luck Tuesday. Keep us posted.

  • lago
    lago Member Posts: 17,186
    edited June 2012
    Dalila I was incorrect. See page 76. For triple positive tumors over .5cm chemo & herceptin is recommended. What I quoted was for Hormone negative, granted it doesn't make sense that hormone negative wouldn't get chemo/herceptin since they can't do horomone therapy.
  • RoulaG
    RoulaG Member Posts: 239
    edited June 2012

    I have been watching the news all weekend about T-DMI. Looks promising, what do you guys think?

  • dmona
    dmona Member Posts: 1
    edited June 2012

    I have just been diagnosed with metastatic breast cancer.  It started with labular and and ductal, then lymph nodes, and now tumors resting on my lung spine and sciatic nerve.  I believe there is one on my knee also.  I am ignorant and have just started research.  I read about a her2/neu vaccine used in N.J. and the University of Washington which after like 6 months the patients showed no tumors.  I would appreciate any information as time is of the essence.  My research stated that they do not want anyone who has had chemo do to it making you very weak.  This all occurred late Friday so i have not had the op to speak with anyone about the vaccine.  I have also started MMS which from what I have read has a large number of people being cured.  If you have any info that can help me please em me asap as I know nothing about this horrible disease.  As I said just found out so I am looking for info so I can make an educated decision.  Thank you

  • lago
    lago Member Posts: 17,186
    edited June 2012

    dmona I don't know what MMS is but I do know that currently there is no known cure for breast cancer. Some people can go into remission with metastatic disease. There are lots of complimentary & alternatives that claim to "cure" you. I would be very cautious when anyone claims they can cure you with metastatic disease. There are lots of scammers out there.

    I highly recommend you talk with a medical oncologist if you haven't already. Go in with an open mind and listen to what they have to say. At the very least you will gain more knowledge about this disease. Don't be afraid to talk to them about the vaccine or MMS. If they discredit it… ask them why.

    Alternative seems to discredit standard treatment and standard treatment seems to discredit alternative. Maybe consider complimentary… a little bit of both. 

    BTW I did the surgery, chemo, Herceptin and hormone treatment. Most women do just fine. I'm doing fine but I didn't have metastatic disease. Remember HER2+ is a fast growing cancer. You really need to research all treatments before making a decision on what to do.

  • candygurl
    candygurl Member Posts: 130
    edited June 2012

    Dmona, I am sorry that were dx with MBC. (SIGH)  

    1. A clinical trial is something you can enroll in on your own. Go to http://www.clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/results?term=her2%2Fneu+vaccine&recr=Open

    2. Lago mentioned using an integrative approach ....Paul Stamets shares during his talk how his mother was diagnosed with stage-four breast cancer over two and a half years ago, and given three months to live. Thanks to the combination of taxol, herceptin, and turkey tail mushrooms, he declared that today she has no detectable tumors.

    WATCH  www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXHDoROh2hA   (The info about BC is at the end of the   video.)Also, read  Turkey Tail Mushroom Proven by NIH Study to Fight Breast Cancer

    Personally, I would choose Insulin Potentiated Therapy over standard chemotherapy.  It only uses 10% of the standard dose of chemo.  Here is some info about that.  WATCH http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YHrKcdSRjFo%20 By integrating IPT into a protocol that includes a healthy, organic diet, free of processed food and sugar, along with an individualized nutritional regimen to heal the body doctors are able to heal up to 60% of their terminally-ill patients. This is because natural IPT regimens not only kill cancer cells in a targeted fashion, but also strengthen the body and immune system

    There was a woman on this board whose screen name is "wornoutmom". She is currently using IPT and having amazing success. She is also HER2+ . You should look up her posts. Like many of us alternative-minded women here, she is taking DIM instead of the drug Tamoxifen.

    3. I have heard of MMS. I don't know if MMS is the best first line treatment to use for your cancer. According to what I read though , it is more effective when used with DMSO.

    4. Definitely add a highly regarded naturopathic oncologist to your medical team. S/he can help you in many ways that a medical onc simply cannot.

    I'm sending a big hug to you with lots of positive energy and I'm praying that you'll find your answer.

    z

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