Why I'm Not Doing Chemo

bluedahlia · December 2011

My doctor explained it to me. Makes sense as it all starts with 1 renegade cell which keeps doubling, every few months. A 1 cm tumor would have about 1 billion cells. I guess you'd have to do the math.

pupmom · December 2011

bluedahlia, did your doc say it takes a few months for a renegade cell to double, meaning become a two celled cancer? That sounds REALLY slow to me.

bluedahlia · December 2011

I think he said 120 days but I CRS anymore, and I didn't even have chemo.

Lulu22 · December 2011

This makes sense, as 2 to the power of 30 (doubling every 4 months for 10 years) is about a billion, or 1,073,741,824 to be exact. A 4 cm tumor doubling in 3 months would be noticeable but that same tumor just a year earlier would, at .5 cm, be harder to spot. A year before that it wouldn't even be palpable at less than a millimeter. If BC grew at a faster clip those whose tumors were found when on the large side would experience extreme increases in size over just a short period. My experience with my tumor is that it increased from about 4 to about 5.5 cm in the 3 weeks between diagnosis and the beginning of chemo.

Lulu22 · December 2011

Sorry about the font issue. I copied and pasted the number but the rest is mine.

bluedahlia · December 2011

Mathematics don't lie. hehehehehehe Thank you!

AlaskaAngel · December 2011

As a tumor enlarges, its growth slows. By the time a tumor becomes large enough to cause symptoms and is clinically detectable, most of its growth has already occurred.

The equation used to calculate the time required for a tumor to reach 10 to the ninth power cells estimates that most human malignancies originate less than 2 years prior to their clinical detection.

(On an individual basis, my HER2+++ tumor was 0.6 cm when initially estimated by mammogram/ultrasound, and 1.6 at removal 6 months later.)

A.A.

bluedahlia · December 2011

I guess you know more than the surgeon.

AlaskaAngel · December 2011

I think the surgeon and you and my entry above are in agreement, bluedahlia. It is just that the doubling doesn't occur at one constant rate throughout its development.

A.A.

Hindsfeet · December 2011

Math is not my forte. I'll leave the numbers and stats to you ladies and the oncologist. I do know that a year ago my right breast mri showed no cancer. Less than a year the right breast showed 2 Cem by 1.7 Cem of idc HER 2+++ . My oncologist said it probably been there since the first dx although not detected by prior mammograms or mri's.

There is helpful information on the Internet and here at bco, but like said many times before, no one here is a cancer specialist so we can only conjecture what we find over the Internet or from other sources. And cancer has a mind of it's own that doesn't fit into stats. It changes, mutates, and can just suddenly disappear.

As my oncologist said that 75% of stage 1 cancers (after surgery) won't recur. Or 1 in 3 will have mets. So 75% of early stage cancer women are being over treated with harsh drugs that could cause other cancers or health issues. Stage 1 women make a difficult decision either way. There are risk no matter what they choose. Hopefully early stage bc women do their homework, and have a oncologist who partner with them, who will help them make a decision they can live with.

I've said earlier...early stage women who say they did treatment, and didn't have a recurrence could be in the 75% of treated women who wouldn't have had mets anyway because their tumor was tiny, or didn't yet developed a blood supply or their cancer didn't move outside the breast before surgery.

With all that said, I know my luck hasn't been so good. I have had stats quoted at me that the odds with a wide margin first time around that I wouldn't have a recurrence. I have been told now by several doctors that I'm at high risk for recurrence. This is why I'm getting rid of the infected cancer making breast. Do I have micro mets floating around that can't be detected yet by scans? Maybe. I am hoping the herceptin, good diet, and exercise is enough. If not...and two years later down the line my situation is different I will go to more extreme measure holistically. Let's all pray by then there are more tartgeted natural therapies and possibly a cure. I'm at peace about what I'm doing...wish the others of you who feel differently felt the same way.

exbrnxgrl · December 2011

Eve, I've read but not posted in your thread before. Although I have chosen conventional treatment, in conjunction with exercise and a good diet, I wholeheartedly support your decision to treat your cancer your way. I am not even sure why there should be any controversy about an adult, who is trying to learn as much about her situation as possible, making whatever choices she feels are right for her. As you also said, none of us are oncologists. Have a wonderful holiday season.

Caryn

Kaara · December 2011

After meeting with my integrative physician and learning his protocol for staying healthy, I am inclined to go with his program and not do the radiation at this time. If my cancer returns in the same breast, then I have radiation as a back up if I want it. If I had already done radiation, my only option would be a mastectomy. I have left side bc and I don't want to compromise my heart unless I have no other choice. I am going to keep my app't with the two oncos that I've lined up, but they are going to have a hard sell unless I hear or read something new to change my mind.

I am confident that with my diet and supplemental program I am making a decision that will be in my best interests. Am I taking a risk...yes...but I would be taking a risk with radiation as well.

Eve: as your surgery date draws nearner, I am thinking and praying that you will get through it with few problems and little pain. Sending you lots of prayers and positive healing energy!

bluedahlia · December 2011

AA, I'm not gonna argue with you but I don't think we're saying the same thing.

Titan · December 2011

maybe for some tumors..i don't think that most triple negative women would agree with you..just saying..Eve..

Hindsfeet · December 2011

Titan...you might be right. I' don't know much about negative tumors. I met a woman today who had brain cancer as a teen and took chemo. She had one recurrence three years later and did chemo again and is alive and well at age 40+ ... so hey, it works for some people. I do think younger people have more of a chance of surviving harsh chemicals than those who are seniors.

Each person must find what works for them. I am not telling anyone not to do chemo...just why I'm not.

There are alternative options to chemo. I also understand that there are alternative targeted therapies using less chemo and vitamin 17 to destroy cancer cells. I'm not sure if negative cancers have looked into that type of therapy or if it would work for them.

Titan · December 2011

There is some research going on for tn's right now...the vitamin 17 thing..I'm just not sure about..everything I google about it doesn't seem very positive..I work for a grocery store chain and I asked them if they could get in the Vit 17 for me...but they couldn't...you can only buy it on line..that just kinda scares me off..

I probably shouldn't be posting here cause I had chemo but I have to admit that I do come to your threads just to see what is upcoming and new.

AlaskaAngel · December 2011

Titan

I had chemo also, and because so many stage I's do not benefit from chemotherapy it is worthwhile for stage 1's to post even if we did chemotherapy. It is confusing for stage 1's. ER/PR positives do not benefit as often from chemotherapy, but because HER2 positivity adds risk and no one knows yet whether there is benefit to chemo in addition to trastuzumab for those who are HER2 positive and ER/PR positive, it is important to continue to raise that question. You were HER2 negative so you didn't have that risk, but you had the risks involved with being triple negative and that favors the addition of chemotherapy in your situation. So it is helpful to even just point out that difference for others to consider. Not all stage 1's should avoid chemotherapy, but there are those for whom the benefit genuinely is questionable, now that trastuzumab is available for those whose risk is based on HER2 positivity rather than their HR status.

AlaskaAngel

Denise2730 · December 2011

Curious about something. Do women without health insurance not get pressured into having chemo?

Titan · December 2011

Oh man chilu..you may be stirring up something here...I have great health insurance and ran the full gamut..8 dose dense with nuelasta shot each time..33 rads..I'm stage one but TN...some people on here say that was too much for me...I dunno...I did it and survived it...my SIL also has great insurance but she was stage 1, er and pr positive..she did not have chemo...her oncotype test was very low..she is also BRAC 2...

I really would hope that care is given to each and every woman...in a perfect world..I guess someone that doesn't have insurance will have to come on here and tell their story...

Insurance is such a crazy thing..I don't know whose "fault" it is...my insurance company would pay a certain amount for a procedure and my cancer treatment center would agree to their fees...If you don't have insurance (or something is not covered)..the procedure is almost half the price..so who is screwing who..you tell me.

Hindsfeet · December 2011

Alternative friends, tomorrow afternoon I'll be in surgery for the dreaded mastectomy. I'm not sure what to expect. I'm also having reconstruction with T.E.'s. This is going to be different than the lumpectomies. The good news is tomorrow I'm going to be cancer free. For now, I'm not worrying about treatments, alternative or herceptin...just getting through tomorrow is all I can think about right now.

thats-life- · December 2011

Im thinking of you eve. One step at a time, is the best way to go. x

Kaara · December 2011

Praying for you eve....may you have the best possible outcome in your surgery. It will be over before you know it, and you will be on the road to recovery! Think all positive thoughts!