WHY would I put myself through this?

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  • Omaz
    Omaz Member Posts: 5,497
    edited December 2011
    IowaSue - Good to 'hear' from you, glad you are doing well!
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Member Posts: 1,376
    edited December 2011

    Tlg-glad you are back and I am happy your oncologist took your problems seriously. I have noticed lately, now that the weather has cooled off that my hansa are cold all the time. Iassume it is probably some leftover neuropathy. Cold hands and feet were my issues during chemo. I am not sure my intestinal issues will ever be normalized. I'm hoping though!



    Heres hoping your symptoms stay manageable. I had herceptin on Monday, after my crazy fun chicago weekend. I have been wiped out this week. Did some decoating in the house today and naptime now!

  • ruthbru
    ruthbru Member Posts: 57,235
    edited December 2011

    Glad your team took your concerns seriously, and that you are doing better this round. Treat yourself gently, this too shall pass.

  • suzieq60
    suzieq60 Member Posts: 6,059
    edited December 2011

    LadyGrey - how are you??? I hope you have coped much better this time.

    ((((((((HUGS))))))))

    Sue

  • suzieq60
    suzieq60 Member Posts: 6,059
    edited December 2011

    Bump - we're anxiously waiting to hear from you!!! Hope you're OK.

  • Jennt28
    Jennt28 Member Posts: 2,021
    edited December 2011

    I was diagnosed just over a week ago. I run cancer clinical trials for a job and this diagnosis has scared the s--t out of me. I know and record the sometimes life-threatening AEs (Adverse Events) of chemotherapy and targeted treatments. But you know what? I'm "putting my big girl pants on" and moving forward with the treatments that the medical experts think will give me the best chance of surviving for another big while.



    I know many oncologists. They are wonderful caring people (men and women). They are not in it for the money. I used to work for a major pharmaceutical company where marketing and sales were definitely in it for the money, but where the clinical research teams were definitely in it to try and keep people alive.



    I think you need to slow down. Use your brain to really try and understand your options (rather than your emotions). Trust the experts (but always check in the scientific literature that they are agreeing with it). And, most importantly I think you need to pull out those "big girl pants" just like I am :-)



    regards Jenn



  • suzieq60
    suzieq60 Member Posts: 6,059
    edited December 2011

    Nicely said Jenn - LadyGrey has done 2 treatments so far. The first wasn't so good but she did go for the second one armed to the teeth with drugs to help.

    You should post your thoughts on the Alternative board. Some people just don't understand how agressive HER2+ve bc is and they are determined to go with unproven alternative treatments - that scares the s--t out of me.

    Sorry you have this diagnosis, but at least it's better than some others ie at least we have targeted therapy for our bc.

    Sue

  • Omaz
    Omaz Member Posts: 5,497
    edited December 2011
    Ladygrey - How are you doing?
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Member Posts: 1,376
    edited December 2011

    Lady,   They can change the herceptin dosage to accomodate your schedule and it does not change the way it works or the effectiveness.   When I went on vacation they gave me the three week dose which took 90 mins to administer.....once I had the two week and that took 1 hr, but normally I had the weekly and it was for 30 mins.  30 mins per week was how they figured it.  Maybe you could ask about this and that would allow you to be with family for all the holidays.  It sounds to me like you are handling things quite well.

    I think IowaSue was saying a lot of SEs were a case of mind over matter for her....don't think she was implying that SEs are not very real for many.  I have been extrmely fortunate that I just don't get typical SEs....right now I am doing adriamycin and I can truthfully say I was very afraid of it after all I had heard....so far I have only have two treatments, 2nd one today and about all it has done to me is make me feel like I am sleeping my life away so again I consider myself to be very fortunate......knock on wood.  

  • TheLadyGrey
    TheLadyGrey Member Posts: 231
    edited December 2011

    I'm doing just OK. Last week went far better than the week after the first treatment but once I took off the nausea patch on Saturday per the instructions things went downhill. The oncologist doubled up the post chemo steroids and those do a number on me so I'm sure ending the steroids had something to do with my precipitous decline.



    I am exercising at least an hour a day, eating healthy and drinking an absurd amount of water. I think I'm one of those people who is just going to feel like dog meat until it is over. The fatigue is unrelenting.



    I feel guilty about feeling ao crummy - like there is something wrong with me, some defect. My self lecturing isn't making a dent in the fatigue nor is it getting the presents bought.....



    I had Herceptin yesterday which seems to knock me back more than it does most people, so maybe by the weekend I'll have enough energy to do something besides exercise and feed myself before the next Herceptin on Monday.



    If things don't improve pretty quick I'm going to tell everyone the Chemo Grinch stole Christmas.



    Thanks for the timing suggestions Marybe - this worked out for the best but I'm going to talk to the oncologist about the most efficient way to do the post-chemo Herceptin. It seems like every time I turn around I'm headed back down to the cancer center - maybe the every three weeks deal makes a huge difference.

  • Omaz
    Omaz Member Posts: 5,497
    edited December 2011
    TLG - I would say not to worry about anything other than taking care of yourself right now.  It sounds like you are doing a great job.  All the other stuff can wait.  As far as effectiveness I think it has been published that one a week herceptin is equally effective as one every three weeks so if that would work better for you great.   ((((hugs))))  Hang in there!!
  • suzieq60
    suzieq60 Member Posts: 6,059
    edited December 2011

    LadyGrey - so glad you came to tell us how you are. Everyone experiences the steroid crash. I remember being quite up at my first tx and my onc said "You are going to crash hard" . It's not safe to take them all the time unfortunately.

    Boy, you're good exercising - I did absolutely nothing expect when on the steroid high - lots of stuff got done then.

    (((((((((((HUGS)))))))))))))))

    Sue

  • bluedasher
    bluedasher Member Posts: 1,203
    edited December 2011

    Chemo makes many people tired. Tiredness, especially the week after, was the most annoying side effect.There is nothing wrong with you and sometimes you need to just give into it and get extra rest. (It didn't give me much choice about that sometimes.) Hang in there, 2 down so you are a third of the way through.

    You might ask your onc about trying to taper the steroids. It sometimes helps.

  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Member Posts: 1,376
    edited December 2011

    When I finished chemo and moved o herceptin evey three weeks, i had side effects worse han when on the weekly chemo/herceptin combo. It is a triple dose. He slowed it down to 90 minutes which helps but i spend a few days wiped out.

  • ruthbru
    ruthbru Member Posts: 57,235
    edited December 2011

    I am so glad you are exercising; it will help you bounce back so much quicker once you are done. Let other people take over everything that you don't want to or feel up to doing....save your energy for the things that are most important to you. Keep hanging in there! Ruth

  • TheLadyGrey
    TheLadyGrey Member Posts: 231
    edited December 2011

    Well here I am one week away from my next TCH, 3 of 4, 6 Herceptin done, which I will be doing at home alone while the rest of the family is on a ski trip so pardon the pity party but I am once again asking myself why am I doing this????



    I got through the last treatment better than the first which just goes to show if you set your standards low enough you will always feel successful.



    I feel like dog meat for two weeks after TCH and I feel like rotten dog meat for two days after each Herceptin and while I am extremely happy for all you folks who never miss a beat with these treatments I am not you - and for the record, I am not remotely close to overweight, I eat well, I drink fluids, I exercise at LEAST one hour a day, I take all the meds, etc, so you can check your moral superiority at the door of my thread- and, although I haven't completed the math, it appears I am looking at at least two more months of dog meatedness, plus plus plus.



    FOR WHAT?



    My husband who was gung ho you need to do it all is suggesting blowing off the year of Herceptin looks sensible. I told him I have no intention of taking Tamoxifin and he agreed that is overkill - to be fair, the vaginal atrophy and loss of sex may have played a part in his opinion but having read all that, I can say with certainty that not one Tamoxifin will cross my lips.



    My kids are wondering exactly when I am going to feel how so they might could schedule a problem between my treatments.



    FOR WHAT? You can do all this and be stage IV next week and dead by next Christmas or do none of it and see your great grand babies and if there is a study which says something meaningful on this point, I have yet to see it.



    This is stupid. I don't do stupid.





  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Member Posts: 1,376
    edited December 2011

    Tlg-have you read the Suzanne Somers books? She did a combination of radiation and lumpectomy anf then has done alternative therapies. Instead of tamoxifen, she took something else...marigold, maybe. I've read a couple of them, and why they are a little out there in some cases, I like some of the things she has chosen to do.

  • suzieq60
    suzieq60 Member Posts: 6,059
    edited December 2011

    LadyGrey - I'm so sorry the treatments are having such an awful impact on you. I won't say I didn't miss a beat - 2 weeks out of 3 was horrible and then you just start to feel better and it's time for another. The herceptin is the most important part - please try to keep going with it.



    (((((((((((HUGS))))))))))))



    Sue

  • Hindsfeet
    Hindsfeet Member Posts: 2,456
    edited December 2011

    Lady Gray, I'm hearing you. I' was told that herceptin had no side effects other than heart problems. Are you finished with chemo? Is it just the herceptn giving you problems?

  • suzieq60
    suzieq60 Member Posts: 6,059
    edited December 2011

    LadyGrey - I just realised you are only having 4 TCH, most of us had 6. So, you're half way already :)

    ((((((((((((((((((HUGS))))))))))))))))))

    Sue

  • TheLadyGrey
    TheLadyGrey Member Posts: 231
    edited December 2011

    Sorry - shouldn't have said anything. I'm not handling this well - among other issues I was not expecting Herceptin to knock me down for two days. Maybe that won't be a big deal at every three weeks but the way it works out now I have about 4 days a month where I feel ok.



    Plus every day I wake up and think "you have 5 more days until the hideousness starts again" so it ruins today too. I know I shouldn't let that happen but I'm just don't have the optimism this disease requires.



    I'm not one of those who is encouraged by the upbeat optimistic thing - mostly that depresses the shit out of me. But there's no way to get real world information on side effects that I know of without running into the BC cheerleaders - not directly to me, but the mentality is pervasive.



    Thank you all who post to me - your support means the world. I wish I was a better BC patient - I wish I believed something besides there are a LOT of folks making a LOT of money off me when my profile certainly doesn't demand it.



    Maybe this is why it is so important to trust your oncologist, which I don't. I think I'm a body being thrown into the machine.



    I wish I'd gone to Cancer Treatment Centers or somewhere where they treat the whole person.

  • Omaz
    Omaz Member Posts: 5,497
    edited December 2011
    TLG - At my center they do various complementary therapies like acupuncture and reflexology.  I went to acupuncture each week.  I think the best part was that I had an hour with the therapist and she basically listened to all my issues for 40 minutes of that hour.  It helped me so much to have someone listen to everything.  Also, the hardest thing was to take those steroids the night before chemo knowing what was coming.  It's tough.  Hopefully it's tough enough to kill any cancer cells that might be trying to hide out somewhere in the body.  Gotta just focus on that.
  • Wabbit
    Wabbit Member Posts: 1,592
    edited December 2011

    I hate that you think you 'aren't handling this well'.  Why in the world do we women always think we have to be superwoman and just carry on like normal no matter what we are going through?

    I had AC instead of TCH but I felt like crap the week after.  What made it bearable was that I was retired and I also made it clear to hubby not to expect me to do squat that week.  I got up and took a shower every day because it made me feel better ... and then had to go take a nap.  And I toddled off for a nap whenever I felt like it.  I was actually glad I didn't have hair because that was one less thing I had to mess with.   I cooked a roast, or a lasagna, or a turkey breast before each treatment and that was his dinner for the week.  Other than that he could eat out or eat peanut butter sandwiches ... not my problem.  A trip to the grocery store during my good week still had to be the only project for the day ... and required a nap after I got home.   We are not 'tired' in the way people normally think of it ... it goes way beyond that and is not cured by a nap.

    I feel bad for those who have to take care of children and try to work at a job while doing chemo.  And I admire those who did well at it.  But I think most of us just endure it one step at a time and have to keep reminding ourselves that it is temporary.  I was a total grump.  I tell people it's 'doable' and it is ... that does not mean it does not suck.  And you know what ... a man with a bad head cold thinks nothing of laying around complaining and expecting to be waited on ... so why do women doing chemo think we shouldn't bitch and moan or expect special treatment? 

    What I am trying to say is pamper yourself ... you deserve it!  Neither are you required to like any of this one little bit.  You are doing what needs to be done in spite of the fact that it is extremely unpleasant.  I'd say that rates a big 'atta girl'.

    You are doing this because it is your best shot to kill off your HER2+ cancer so you will not have to deal with it later in worse places.  That is not stupid ... it is smart IMHO.  (((hugs)))    

       

  • AlaskaAngel
    AlaskaAngel Member Posts: 1,836
    edited December 2011

    It is one thing to do chemo based on the evidence demonstrated by clinical trials that included your tumor characteristics. But it is another thing to do treatment after treatment based on the outcomes of those with tumors having higher risk characteristics than yours, knowing that the trials the treatment is based upon never were done that included tumors like yours.

    Getting through chemotherapy takes forcing yourself to do something really unpleasant. It would help a LOT to know that those who are so quick to speak in favor of the treatment, such as oncologists and their staff, have actually gone through it themselves -- including suffering the SE's and especially the SE's that are permanent -- and it would help even more to know that they went through it knowing all the while that they had failed entirely to demonstrate that the chemotherapy itself was needed in addition to the trastuzumab. But they haven't. They have nothing to lose, no skin in the game. The truth is that so far they haven't had the compassion to do the homework. And that is the difference when it comes to treatment for people who are stage 1.

  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Member Posts: 1,376
    edited December 2011

    White Rabbit-----AMEN SISTER!!! Loved your post.

    I was just thinking I have barely cooked in a year. Much easier for me as one child is on his own and the other just finished school in California. I highly recommend Wolfgang Puck's Organic free range chicken soup with egg noodles. Just tastes good when you don't feel like eating much.

    I napped all the time..actually still do as the every three weeks herceptin is much harder on me now. It wears me out, makes me a little queasy off and on, which responds to zofran. I did have joint pain, but once we lengthened the time of infusion to 90 minutes instead of 30, many of those SE's went away. I am a realtor now, after years of working in senior management with sponsors in sports event management. I didn't do much this past year by choice, and am glad I am in a position where I can schedule in naptime between client appointments.

    And while I wouldn't say I am totally grumpy, I'm certainly not a cheerleader. They really get on my nerves, especially the ones who tell me that after they go through everything, they feel like they are better people who learned life lessons. Puhlease. They only lesson that I feel was more reinforced than learned, was how great my circle of friends and family is. I thought we would lose a lot of our couple friends, whose husbands couldn't deal with all my issues, and those husbands have been wonderful. Much more supportive than I expected. I am, by nature, an optimistic person, so I do tend to bouce back from things usually, but this diagnosis took me a long time, and I can honestly say, I still do not handle the HER2 part well. It still causes me great stress to think that stage 1, no nodes, mastectomy, chemo, herceptin and a couple of rogue cells can send me to stage IV in distant locations in a heartbeat.

    I am finally starting to laugh again and feel a little more like me (I think I am very funny).

    A great book to read is Five Lessons I Didn't Learn from Breast Cancer, by Shelly Lewis. After reading several warrior books, do good kinds, etc, this one is irreverent, funny and a lot like my personality. I read parts of it out loud to my husband and he said it sounded like I wrote the book.

    TLG-I hope things get a little better for you. I feel terrible that you don't have a good relationship with your oncologist. My relationship with the Onc and PS really helped me through. The PS is funny and irreverent and the Onc is spiritual...meditates and does yoga (teaches it to us 2 nights a week). By some luck of the draw, their offices are next door to each other, so I always saw them both on the same day. I would have my spiritual fix, and then the PS would blow it all to hell with his craziness that would leave me laughing. It helped a lot.

    I will say the one thing this did for my kids, particularly my 23 year old, model-dancer-actress-singer daughter, is cause her to realize the world no longer revolves around her drama (and she and her friends always had some kind of drama ongoing). She has really become very thoughtful toward others. Maybe she just grew up in the last year, but I think my diagnosis made her look at things differently. Although she is still as stubborn and pigheaded as ever....a trait she inherited honestly from me. LOL

    If there is anything more we can do for you besides listen, please let us know.

    Jill

  • Hindsfeet
    Hindsfeet Member Posts: 2,456
    edited December 2011

    The end of January I will be doing the herceptin treatments. I will do tamoxifen only for 1 month. I do not do med's well. I get very tired on ibprofin. I am loopy on pain meds. I don't have the privilege to nap during the day. I am the bread winner in my family. I have 25 staff depending on me. I can't take time off. I am hoping to be back to work when school starts up again in January, days after my mastectomy. In nine years I have never taken off a sick day. When I had my lumpectomy, I went right back to work. So the idea of feeling bad like Gray Lady is scary. I can't afford to be down like her.

  • angelsister
    angelsister Member Posts: 474
    edited December 2011

    I really hope things go smoothly with your surgery eve and you can get right back to work x

  • dragonfly1
    dragonfly1 Member Posts: 766
    edited December 2011

    Theladygrey I really hope that you get through your remaining treatments with as little discomfort as possible-it's the best any of us can hope for with this far from perfect treatment. I will say that I share many of your feelings. I have not been a star BC patient either and I'm no hero. I have been downright angry at times about the "be positive, be strong" comments to the point that it's now a joke in my family-my DH says it with a twinkle in his eye and then ducks. I didn't feel well at all during chemo and I didn't intend to pretend otherwise. I also had a problem with the idea that this experience was supposed to somehow transform me. I was pretty happy before BC thank you very much and all it did was completely disrupt my life. See what I mean? I'm not the picture of positivity even now.

    I try to step back and look at this objectively. We're dealing with a nasty disease and the science is far from perfect. We'll never know if you or I truly needed chemo because the science isn't advanced enough to tell us yet. It's just a projection at this point. So, here we are doing our best at risk reduction with treatments that sometimes feel barbaric. Still, I truly believe that it's our best chance given the information we have and I hope I live to see the day when we can say "remember when they used to treat BC with chemo...?". But I won't cheer while going through this and I'm certainly not happy that it's the best science can offer us right now. 

    fluffqueen01 I downloaded the book onto my Ipad today and I only wish I had known about it a year ago-thanks for that! It's just what I needed! Shelly Lewis really sums up a lot of what I've been feeling throughout this process. I've scanned some of it already and I particulary like the section about the "attitude police" which included the statement that an analysis of 28 previous studies concluded that there is no direct relationship between your attitude and your survival. I knew I didn't have to be positive or strong:) Theladygrey I really think some days all you have to do is keep showing up...

  • Ang7
    Ang7 Member Posts: 1,261
    edited December 2011

    I don't know, maybe I went into this differently...

    I went into this knowing I would feel bad at times.  And I did.  I actually ended up dehydrated and had to go in for fluids.  But there were times during chemo that I felt good and was able to enjoy some things with my kids.  I know everyone is not the same but looking back I did not feel bad all the time...

    Good thoughts to all going through chemo, surgery etc.

    (Did not mean to sound like "chemo cheerleader")

  • AlaskaAngel
    AlaskaAngel Member Posts: 1,836
    edited December 2011

    It is heartening to see the mutual support here, and you all are such good people!

    Based on the responses, though, I'm puzzled as to why anyone would believe that eventually there might be more humane treatment. The mass of us cattle going through treatment for the most part "hope" that "someday" it will be much better for "someone else". What reasons are there for the health care system to make the change to something different, when so many are so resigned to going ahead with it and not questioning it? Especially when the cost for it (and the profit for it) continues to increase phenomenally every year?

    I mean, is that "good enough" for our daughters and sons, "until something better happens"?

    AlaskaAngel

    P.S. I was in that same herd of cattle 10 years ago as of this coming January, and trastuzumab is the only change.  We are still herded into doing chemotherapy in order to get the trastuzumab, whether it is needed or not.

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