WHY would I put myself through this?
Comments
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You are welcome sweetheart, I am glad you are feeling a bit better.
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LadyGrey - I love your onc - she has given you the facts (as we were trying to do) and you've listened. I did read about a trial of herceptin only but for older patients - 70+ I think.
(((((((HUGS)))))))
Sue
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I remember as well that once i was dx as her2+, any talk of Oncotype or not doing chemo was immediately out the window.
The thought of you having those two dramatically different types of cancer at the same time is really weird. Forgive me if you have explained this before, but were they in the same tumor, the same breast or different breasts? Our bodies do such strange things sometimes. But either way I'm glad it is OUT of you and that you have a plan.
Are you getting a port?
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Yea, that HER2 thing makes for shorter conversations.
Left breast only -- well, I hope so as the right one is still with me.
I've concluded that pathology is far more nuanced than I thought, which suggests I ever thought about it which I didn't. I believed it was black and white. "I have ER/PR- DCIS and I know this because it says so right there in the biopsy report."
My final pathology report is four pages long with a one page addendum. The pathologist and the oncologist don't use the word tumor -- both use "pattern." I don't know if that term is generally applicable. The invasive "pattern" is against a background of DCIS specifically and general atypia of different types throughout the breast.
Did I mention I hung onto my right breast?
The HER2+ cells divide at a frantic pace so their nuclei are disorganized, volatile and variable. Like a bunch of tequila shooting teenagers at a party where the parents are out of town, they indescriminately procreate. The HER- cells are buzzed but chill unless something ticks them off. The DCIS gang is hanging on the couch watching the game. The behaving cells are taking a long weekend away from the kids in Vegas -- so they may get into trouble too.
Hmmm...all of my metaphors involve parties.
I had in my mind a distinct mass that measured X by Y and I am sure there are breast cancers like that, where you cut it distinctly out.
My impression is that my cancer looks a bit like Van Gogh's Starry Starry Night where the gradations are pervasive and bleed into one another.
I am absolutely getting a port -- for some odd reason, I never considered otherwise. Maybe it is because I don't want to look down at my arm and be reminded of this for the rest of my life. For me, the prospect of being stuck and stuck, then stuck again is far more terrifying than a port.
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LOL - you make me laugh - good to see your mood is changing - also good decision on the port - you'll appreciate it.
Sue
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Got through my first chemo Wednesday, Cold Caps and all.
Felt ok Thursday then kind of crummy yesterday afternoon then last night - I have no words. Projectile vomiting and constipation that had me curled in a ball whimpering then explosive diarrhea, so weak all I could do was lay on the floor in a puddle of excrement, vomit and urine for hours, freezing. I couldn't keep anything down long enough for it to make a difference.
It was the most horrible, painful, humiliating, degrading, nightmarish night of my life.
I am PISSED OFF. My oncologist promised me that no one got sick like that any more. I got something called in at 8 for the constipation after BEGGING - the on call doctor wanted me to continue with the OTC's I had been taking since three days before chemo started, plus more yesterday. I had no way to pick up anything after that.
I took all my medicines religiously - set my phone alarm for the anti nausea stuff which, after I started throwing up, instantly made me vomit even harder.
I can't do that again. I just can't. I'm still too weak to walk to the bathroom - have to crawl. My husbands was out of town last night and came back to take care of me, but I can't eat anything - food is just fuel for the digestive explosion of last night. And I'm mortified that he had to clean that up but I just couldn't.
I can't stop crying - I feel so horrible but I don't think anyone or thing can help me. The doctor called in Zoffan, but I think I'm too scared to take it.
I don't want to scare anyone off of chemo but there is a reality beyond flu like symptoms.
I'm so upset. -
Your doctor called in zofran!!?!! Why T. F. wasn't that one of your scheduled meds? I can see why you don't want to continue, but this never should have happened. Zofran should be scheduled for at least several days after chemo (I usually went a week even though docs said it only works on immediate nausea - not true - it also works on delayed - it just tends to be very constipating. (I am a pharmacist, so besides personal experience, I do know something about this.)
I am truly sorry this happened to you. Blah
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Oh Lady Gray! I am so very sorry this happened to you! Happened to me too....So very sorry....... Kiley
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I don't blame you for being upset. Are you taking herception and the chemo at the same time? Or, do you take chemo first and then herception?
I trust that you will find reselve soon in what to do or not to do. I have a friend last year, who was on it for six months with horrible side effects..won't go into it..it was a nightmare.
Lady Gray, I'm trying to decide if to do a uni or bilateral. I can't even believe, I'm still waiting on a surgery date and I was dx back Oct 4th. I'm a little ok with it in that it's giving me time to process everything before wacking off my breast. How do you feel about having one normal breast and one reconstructed? How was the recovery? Are you glad you kept one? One day, I'm ok with the blmx and the next day I'm not. I'm going to call the surgeon on Monday and talk to her about it.
Hope you feel better soon...(((hugs))) Evebarry
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LadyGrey - I'm SO sorry you have had this happen. I was given dexamethasone to take the day before, the day of and the day after chemo. Also given Emend on the treatment day with 2 tabs to take on the 2 subsequent days and goodness knows what other pre meds on treatment day. This should NOT happen. Your onc obviously hasn't prescribed the necessary preventative drugs.
Also, I used to take sennacot starting before each treatment and contining for several days after - constipation has to be avoided.
I do remember crying for 10 days after the first tx - had really bad leg pain 2 days after. The doctors don't seem to prescribe stuff until you actually suffer a side effect - that really pissed me off. Once he saw what I went thruogh, I got the required drugs and was much better the next time.
My DH had a nasty reaction to oxalyplatin - vomiting at 2 am one morning - after that he was admitted to hospital for the first day of his treatment and loaded up on antihistamines which did the trick and he made it through all but 1 of his 12 treatments.
It would be interesting to know if you were given herceptin at the first tx, my onc left it until the 2nd one so he would be able to discern which drug caused a reaction.
I do hope you feel a bit better soon.
((((((((HUGS)))))))
Sue
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Call the treatment center RIGHT NOW. They must have an emergency weekend number. You should not be feeling this crummy. Something is off with your anti-nausea stuff. Don't suffer in silence!
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Sounds like it might be a reaction to the carboplatin - quite like what happened to my DH.
Do as Ruth says - call now!!!
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Hi LadyGray,
I read your post, and having been diagnosed at the time the trastuzumab trials were actually running before trastuzumab was approved, I have a different perspective.
You wrote:
"WIth chemo + Herceptin, the risk of recurrence with small HER2+ tumors dropped from 10-15% to near zero. Doing a trial with Herceptin only would be ethically difficult given what the medical community knows about the efficacy of chemo plus Herceptin. It is unethical to continue with a trial when it becomes clear that a class of participants is experiencing materially better results, the idea being that all trial participants should be offered the superior treatment."
I agree, that is the general impression. However, there are various reasons why most of the trials did not originally include node negatives, etc. One is that trial results are dramatically better when you only include those who are more likely to recur, which are of course those who have node-positive and/or larger tumors. Because trastuzumab was a new kind of drug, the results had to be shown to be dramatically better than chemo.
By the same reasoning, a larger number of those who are node-negative with smaller tumors generally do not recur, even if all they have is surgical removal of the tumor.
Those who fund research don't like to spend the money on clinical trials for cancer groups that are known to have a low recurrence rate because the results are not impressive enough to make headlines or excite investors.
Doing the trials on the higher risk groups made trastuzumab resuls look more impressive than if they had done it on the entire group all of the way down to stage 0.
Because they have never done the trials with Herceptin alone for early stage bc, we have not had the pleasure of foregoing chemo and seeing this result:
"WIth Herceptin alone, the risk of recurrence with small HER2+ tumors dropped from 10-15% to near zero."
I don't think that failure to do their homework is anything for anyone to be proud of.
-AlaskaAngel
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Ladygrey-i agree with above poster. Get your onc on the phone and demand changes. Once you are feeling better ask about some different chemo options. I had twelve weeks of taxol with my herceptin. Nausea is not a big side effect.
Take the zoffran. I popped one at the least little sign of queasiness.
I was not given a bunch of premeds to take before chemo, but my onc uses iv decadron before chemo. Maybe you need a different steriod mixture.
I hope you start improving soon. -
I forgot, they also gave me iv aloxi pre taxol just in case there would be nausea.
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LadyGrey, Im really sorry you've had to be on this roller coaster. I have no advice, as I have never done chemo and most likely never will but I just wanted to offer my support. I know you are a smart lady and will come out the other side of this OK. Hang in there!
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Lady Grey, I am so sorry this happened to you. I am a little shocked however, as Taxotere has a pretty bad reputation for nausea/side effects. I also did a Taxane (Paclitaxel) and it wasn't that bad. I didn't need the Zofran but, I still had it prescribed and on hand. I later did AC and absolutely needed ALL of the anti-nausea meds.
I don't know what you're getting for pre-meds but, it should be steroid (Decadron/Dexamethasone) and Pepcid, at least. You will need it for the reflux/heartburn. I also got Benadryl and hated it (for it's narcoleptic effect). These meds are needed to overcome the potential reactions to to the solution used to dilute the Taxane into IV form. There are IV anti-nausea meds, too. An earlier post mentioned Aloxi. I got that with the AC. I had no problems with it. The steroids make you feel semi-ok for the first day or two but, for me, the steroid crash was horrible, as I believe
they made me into a weepy mess.
Dont be afraid of Zofran. You should have Zofran and Compazine, at the very least. If you are vomitting and cant keep Zofran down, you can put Compazine under your tongue to dissolve. Emend is usually reserved for AC and the harsher chemo's But, hell ask for it, too, if insurance will approve it. It's very expensive. You will DEFINATELY need the Zofran every 8 hours for the first 2-4 days after chemo. Then, you can try weaning off on day 5 or 6. Zofran is terribly constipating. I countered it with milk, juicing, veggies and the stool softeners. It's tough because, just like pregnany-induced nausea, the tendency is to want to eat "safe" foods (carbs). Constipation also sucks but it's better than nausea and vomitting.
I am praying you feel better soon.
I hope the docs can fix this quickly. I know it will be much better the next go around. -
Lady gray
You must be feeling so afraid. The above posts are correct you should have had Emend or some other preventative med for all those symptoms you are having. I had both pills to take in advance and stuff in my IV., then ongoing meds to prevent this. I would call the treatment center and get who ever is on call to get you what you need, or meet you at the ER. I can't even imagine what your Onc was thinking to not have you properly prepared especially after you have voiced your fears over and over.
The other thing that I will share is that my first dose of TC was an overdose for my size body and really wigged me out. My Onc quickly agreed to reduce the dose by 25% and things went much better.
I am so sorry for your suffering, what a bummer and I can imagine how discouraged you must feel after getting your courage up to do the treatment.
Hugs
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LadyGrey - I'm sorry - we all encouraged you to do the treatment but we didn't give you advice on how to prepare. Hope you're feeling a little better.
Sue
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TLG, I've been waiting for a post from you to hear how it went with the first treatment. This is not what I wanted to hear. I'm so sorry that you are having to deal with this. No advice from me because I haven't been through it but just lots of hoping that you are able to get rid of these symptoms quickly.
Then you can go in and ask why the f*@# your oncologist didn't have the right preventative drugs available to you from the start. You have every right to be pissed off and you have a right to get the answers as to why you got so sick when it appears that some or much of it could have been avoided.
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Ditto -- Bessie WTF didn't you get the appropriate preventative medications!! I had 3 different medications including Emend and yes I had some constipation issues but never vomit. I have a weak stomach and get car sickness for Pete's sake and I expected to vomit and never did. This lack of following treatment protocol is wrong -- I'd be calling and making a scene big time. I'm so sorry you had such a horrible experience that may have been avoided.
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Anyone besides me thinking LAWYER?????????! Mal-practice in my opinion
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LadyGrey,
One of the frustrations about doing chemo is that those who haven't had a hard time with the nausea and vomiting believe their experience is the "norm", even though they were given a different chemotherapy regimen.
Your experience is what I went through SIX TIMES when I did CAFx6. The dread I went through each and every time was like yours. You are doing a different regimen from me and a different regimen from the common regimens of either AC + TH or TCH. I believe the regimen makes a difference. The only 2 antinausea medications available back when I was treated were Compazine (prochlorperazine) and Zofran (ondansetron). I took both as recommended and like you, still suffered through the nightmare of repeated projectile vomiting and prolonged nausea. Drugs like Emend and Kytril were not yet available at that time.
You mentioned that you were given an antinausea medication and you took it as directed and still had the problem with the nausea and vomiting. I don't know what antinausea medication you had. However, despite what those who have had other regimens say about being sure to take Zofran or be sure to take antinausea medications ahead of time and afterward, my bet is that they did not have your chemo regimen.
Despite the common belief to the contrary, and the false belief by those who do other chemotherapies, doing treatment is NOT as easy for everyone as it is for some.
Despite the heavyhanded approach favoring chemotherapy (without ever thoroughly testing the use of Herceptin used alone for early stage bc), there are other women who have attempted to do chemotherapy and have then refused further chemotherapy and they have received trastuzumab alone.
You would have to be the one to decide whether to take on that unknown risk and pursue convincing your onc that is what you want, or else finding another onc who would be willing to do that. But it is being done by some oncs.
AlaskaAngel
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I am feeling better after sleeping for over 24 hours. Have had a piece of toast since Friday morning that I picked at most of yesterday. I am terrified to eat anything for fear it will cause the volcano to erupt again, and with that statement I am again sobbing.
Every single medical professional involved in this infusion from the doctor on down should be deeply ashamed of their professional performance. Tis my belief.
I laid on feces covered sheets for hours after my husband got home waiting for him to leave long enough for me to change them. I can't express how horrible the prior night was - all other issues aside, my sweet 16 year old son would knock from time to time saying "mom, please let me help you." I am so ashamed.
I can't do that again. I just can't. My husband says next time I will have the right drugs, but why in God's holy name would I trust them? I could not have been more clear before - does laying in pools of my own waste entitle me to a higher standard of care?
I think I have PTSD.
So, for Mrs. BlairK and anyone else considering chemo and for my own cathartic purposes, here's what happened. Caveat emptor.
The THC was last Wednesday at 11. Per my instructions, the prior Friday I picked up the prescriptions that were called in. At no time were the drugs or their side effects explained to me. I got generic Xanax, generic compazine and a steroid. The Xanax and compazine were to be taken every X hours as needed for nausea. The directions on the steroid were for one full tablet morning and night for two days then one half tablet morning and night for two days.
No start dates was given on the steroid so I emailed and called the nurse to confirm that I was begin the following day, Saturday, and take the four days leading up to the Wednesday chemo. I did not hear back, so that is what I did. I was up, bright and early, chipper as could be at 3:00 Monday morning, a side effect I expected. Mid morning Monday, she called and sits "no, no - you are supposed to start the steroids the day after the treatment."
Oops. Oh well, no way I could have known that. And no way I could have known steroids cause constipation. Or a steroid crash. Or weepiness. Because nobody bothered to tell me.
So I went to treatment madder than a wet hornet sobbing like a two year old having not used the restroom since Saturday. I started all the anti-constipation stuff on Monday, but I guess it was too little too late.
I noticed during my treatment that my anxiety level was still sufficiently high to power the electricity needs of a medium sized city, and asked about the Atavan pre-med I expected. It turns out thet don't just give it to you - they dont even offer it to you. You have to know enough to ASK for it then your doctor has to order it then they give it to you. And asking for it means specifically saying "I Want Atavan" - it is not enough to tell your oncologist's nurse that you are terrified or appear for treatment with eyes swollen from sobbing, silent tears streaming down your face and shaking all over like a leaf. An actual human being would hlep you if they could - but not a chemo nurse.
I was surprised you have to ask for Atavan as I thought it was for both anxiety and nausea. Things went much easier after that started, which started about half way through.
I took my compazine at the beginning of chemo and as ordered thereafter and felt ok through Friday afternoon when I started feeling the constipation cramps getting progressively worse. I consulted Dr. google and discovered that 6 days without using the restroom is a respectable time to call the doctor without being a whiner, so I called at about 2 in the afternoon. I made the fatal mistake of admitting there was an OTC remedy I hadn't tried (Mirulax) so agreed to try that and call back the next day if it didn't work. That nurse could not get off the phone with me quickly enough.
By 7:30 pm I was in the lovely position of sitting on the potty with nothing happening throwing up in the trash can between my feet. I know enough to know that once you start throwing up, it's very difficult to get under control but the abdominal cramps from the constipation were so excruciating I hardly noticed the vomiting. Called the after hours line and by BEGGING got them to call in Lactulose, a prescription anti constipation drug. My son drove me to pick it up (he's got to get his license!), and I managed to only throw up outside the car (yea me!). When I got back, I got in a hot bath which eased the cramping a hair. I knew I was leaking fecal material into the water, and tried to keep my mastectomy incision dry but was really past caring.
The Lactulose kicked in ... when? Could have been one hour later, could have been four, and despite the utter grotesqueness of it, it was a relief. I had no hope of getting to the toilet, so i just laid on a towel and the bath mat and gave up. At least for a while after every explosion I felt better even if I was laying in my own filth.
By the time my husband got home mid morning, I had cleaned myself up some, and was in the unbeknownst to him soiled bed, and had cleaned at least some of the filth in the bathroom, stopping each time I vomited again. Later in the day (I totally lost track of time) I spoke to the same on call doc who I talked to the night before who did not remember me. "Well, I guess we could try Zofran- do you want me to call that in?" Nah - lets just have a nice chat and get to know each other until I can get this gun loaded properly and placed up against my temple.
That was a joke.
Just ate an egg and a piece of toast and drinking a real Coke, bracing myself. Took Zofran with it - I assume I just take that and not that plus compazine, but heaven forbid I be given such specific instructions when it is so much fun to guess. Xanax next then hopefully sleep and if all goes well, I will regain my desire to live.
I won't do that again without meeting with the oncologist personally (she is no longer "my" oncologist) - and screw her grossly negligent nurse. My husband is already starting with the "nice, nice" - "of course you will do the right thing - you just need the right drugs! And next time you will have them!"
Rubbish. Horsefeathers. I was supposed to have them LAST time - what's going to be so different? -
LadyGrey,
You and I posted just now simultaneously. See my previous post.
I can only say that clear back in 2002 when I was treated, the standard practice was to start Zofran before doing chemotherapy, and it was given for several days afterward. Again, I want to mention that I still had the extreme projectile vomiting and nausea every single time. I can only imagine whether or not it could have been even worse without it. I do not understand why you were not prescribed Zofran automatically ahead of time as well as afterward (unless you were given newer drugs).
A.A.
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P.S. In regard to steroids -- Initially I was given infused steroids as well as anti-anxiety medication at time of infusion. By the third treatment, within 15 minutes of starting the chemotherapy infusion, the nausea was there for me. So they doubled the infused steroid dose from then on. Doubling the steroid dose resulted in more problems for me to deal with after the final treatment was completed.
However, although I will never know one way or the other, the doubled steroids may have also helped me to stay without evidence of disease long-term because of the anti-inflammatory effect of steroids.
A.A.
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I agree everyone reacts different to chemo as I had my issues on AC. However, TODAY there are more efficient anti-nausea then 10 years ago. I had 3 different prescriptions but the only name I remember is EMEND which is very effective as many have posted on Chemo forum. YES --- those so called medical professionals should be deeply ashamed of how they handled your regimen. I would file a complaint and pursue this further so it is never repeated on you or another patient.
I ended up in the ER from AC complications and my Onc referred me to my PCP to treat the symptoms. It was this site where women here helped me by describing Protonix which required a script. My Onc did not know to give it to me but the ladies on this site did!! Later he told me he gave it to another patient who like me had same GI problems (he learned from me) .....
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I can't believe she didn't give you Emend!!!!
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I am truly shocked by the manner in which you were treated. I am in Dallas also although not at Baylor, but still at a Texas Oncology group and my onc has me loaded up on meds. I have heard such wonderful things about your onc that I'm truly, truly stunned!
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I'm truly, truly stunned as well. I think it is the trial lawyer in me that I get so incredibly angry when someone talks a good story and I buy into it hook, line and sinker, only to find out later I have been sold a bill of goods.
I totally believed Dr. O'Shaughnessy - both her express representation that I would not endure what I did and the implied statement that she would do what she could to prevent it and, if necessary, fix it. She has both the credentials and the persona. I don't trust easily and I don't deal well with being tricked. Regardless of how the rest of the world might view it, I blame it on myself - I should have known better and run - not walked - RUN away. I had that experience Friday night because I failed to suss out the truth and character of those I was dealing with. My bad.
I'm one of those people who would rather be dead than feel foolish so I am careful to never overstate the situation. The on call doctor was palpably indifferent - I mentioned constipation so I guess the fever (100) and vomiting (constant) were irrelevant. I don't think it is my job to bring those things up, and frankly I was scared if I didn't stay on track she would tell me to take more Metamusil or Miralax or Milk of Magnesia and refuse to help me. And I am convinced that given half a chance that is precisely what she would have done. I couldn't risk muddying the waters with nausea and fever (and let's not mention the bone pain yet....)
I'm not quite sure what to do. Do I cancel the remaining appointments and start looking for someone else? Do I go talk to her before the next infusion, assuming I can get an appointment? Or do I call it a day and blow the whole damn thing off - there is no compelling evidence that my cancer needs adjuvant treatment of any kind - what does seem clear is that If you are only going to do one, Herceptin is it.
Oh dear .... Throwing up again.... Here I go.....
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