I say yes, you say no, OR People are Strange
Comments
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Just a suggestion: If the nasty PM's are SO horrible...contact the mods and put the person on ignore.
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Otter, there is nothing to keep anyone from posting the pm info. Once it is sent to you, it is yours. I reread the rules to make sure.
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[Post deleted by otter]
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Hear hear.
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O.K. Otter, I saw that you sent me a pm and now that I have been made out to be nothing short of than a terrorist, I ask that you please forgive me and let me just go on my merry way. I did not think that what I said to you was that horrible, but please you have my permission to put my pm to you on this board for everyone to see. You won't have to report me, because I voluntarily leave this board and I will never bother any one you again. Kathy
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Can we drop this now? The sender of the PM has been punished and humiliated and is leaving the board. Isn't that enough.
Otter .. Kathy said you could post the PM .. but what would be the point now? To what end?
I think it's time to move on.
Bren
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Wow. This is beyond insanity. I can't believe no one has slammed the delete button. Far less innocuous things have been deleted recently.
Maybe we're growing up and not tattling now when things get heated??
I'm so stunned by all this, I think I'll go back and listen to Michelle Bachmann.
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A day in the life of women on BCO (with a little help from her friend).
((((Otter)))) allergies can arrive with certain flowers.
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Okay... okay. Sorry I've been responsible for so much drama. Sorry for p*ssing off so many people. Sorry we ran out of popcorn before the show was over.
I never intended to post the content of any private messages. I never mentioned anyone's username, or offered any details that might have revealed anyone's identity. I was very, very p*ssed off and feeling wounded (Mama Grizzly?). I should have just sucked it up and kept things to myself. Usually, I can do that. But, this time I couldn't. Sh*t.
I've gone back through my posts on this thread and deleted any reference to any aforementioned message or the person who sent it. Happy now?
otter
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I don't know Anne .. I think I would have liked Bachman's speech more if I had eaten some magic mushrooms beforehand. Nothing new in her speech .. just more tea party propaganda.
Bren
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Plus she wouldn't look into the camera...I guess her teleprompter was off centre.
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I had just eaten my dinner and could not possibly watch Ms. Bachman due to the fear of the resulting nausea. Almost sorry to have missed all the drama here tonight, but the entertainment watching all of the dynamics play out during the SOTU speech was just too much to resist. I liked the opposing party members sitting together.
Love the idea of a Palin/Bachman ticket! Awesome!
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BinVA wrote:
Bachman rewrites history. A perfect example of free speech .. with consequences. She had her facts all wrong, but was quite free to spout them anyways.
I'm posting this Bachman link because I cannot stand the way she rewrites history and has no knowledge of the birth of our nation.
I don't 'hate' Bachman, but her free speech is a little dangerous in that she shows to be completely lacking in our history, but yet purports to know what she is talking about.
Some food for thought. Yes, I realize this is long, but I thought many of you might be interested.
You can find the references on the link below.
http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=122
The Founding Fathers and Slavery David Barton - 01/01/2001
Even though the issue of slavery is often raised as a discrediting charge against the Founding Fathers, the historical fact is that slavery was not the product of, nor was it an evil introduced by, the Founding Fathers; slavery had been introduced to America nearly two centuries before the Founders. As President of Congress Henry Laurens explained:
Prior to the time of the Founding Fathers, there had been few serious efforts to dismantle the institution of slavery. John Jay identified the point at which the change in attitude toward slavery began:I abhor slavery. I was born in a country where slavery had been established by British Kings and Parliaments as well as by the laws of the country ages before my existence. . . . In former days there was no combating the prejudices of men supported by interest; the day, I hope, is approaching when, from principles of gratitude as well as justice, every man will strive to be foremost in showing his readiness to comply with the Golden Rule ["do unto others as you would have them do unto you" Matthew 7:12]. 1
Prior to the great Revolution, the great majority . . . of our people had been so long accustomed to the practice and convenience of having slaves that very few among them even doubted the propriety and rectitude of it. 2
The Revolution was the turning point in the national attitude-and it was the Founding Fathers who contributed greatly to that change. In fact, many of the Founders vigorously complained against the fact that Great Britain had forcefully imposed upon the Colonies the evil of slavery. For example, Thomas Jefferson heavily criticized that British policy:
He [King George III] has waged cruel war against human nature itself, violating its most sacred rights of life and liberty in the persons of a distant people who never offended him, captivating and carrying them into slavery in another hemisphere or to incur miserable death in their transportation thither. . . . Determined to keep open a market where men should be bought and sold, he has prostituted his negative for suppressing every legislative attempt to prohibit or to restrain this execrable commerce [that is, he has opposed efforts to prohibit the slave trade]. 3
Benjamin Franklin, in a 1773 letter to Dean Woodward, confirmed that whenever the Americans had attempted to end slavery, the British government had indeed thwarted those attempts. Franklin explained that . . .
. . . a disposition to abolish slavery prevails in North America, that many of Pennsylvanians have set their slaves at liberty, and that even the Virginia Assembly have petitioned the King for permission to make a law for preventing the importation of more into that colony. This request, however, will probably not be granted as their former laws of that kind have always been repealed. 4
Further confirmation that even the Virginia Founders were not responsible for slavery, but actually tried to dismantle the institution, was provided by John Quincy Adams (known as the "hell-hound of abolition" for his extensive efforts against that evil). Adams explained:
The inconsistency of the institution of domestic slavery with the principles of the Declaration of Independence was seen and lamented by all the southern patriots of the Revolution; by no one with deeper and more unalterable conviction than by the author of the Declaration himself [Jefferson]. No charge of insincerity or hypocrisy can be fairly laid to their charge. Never from their lips was heard one syllable of attempt to justify the institution of slavery. They universally considered it as a reproach fastened upon them by the unnatural step-mother country [Great Britain] and they saw that before the principles of the Declaration of Independence, slavery, in common with every other mode of oppression, was destined sooner or later to be banished from the earth. Such was the undoubting conviction of Jefferson to his dying day. In the Memoir of His Life, written at the age of seventy-seven, he gave to his countrymen the solemn and emphatic warning that the day was not distant when they must hear and adopt the general emancipation of their slaves. 5
While Jefferson himself had introduced a bill designed to end slavery, 6 not all of the southern Founders were opposed to slavery. According to the testimony of Virginians James Madison, Thomas Jefferson, and John Rutledge, it was the Founders from North Carolina, South Carolina, and Georgia who most strongly favored slavery. 7
Yet, despite the support for slavery in those States, the clear majority of the Founders opposed this evil. For instance, when some of the southern pro-slavery advocates invoked the Bible in support of slavery, Elias Boudinot, President of the Continental Congress, responded:
[E]ven the sacred Scriptures had been quoted to justify this iniquitous traffic. It is true that the Egyptians held the Israelites in bondage for four hundred years, . . . but . . . gentlemen cannot forget the consequences that followed: they were delivered by a strong hand and stretched-out arm and it ought to be remembered that the Almighty Power that accomplished their deliverance is the same yesterday, today, and for ever. 8
Many of the Founding Fathers who had owned slaves as British citizens released them in the years following America's separation from Great Britain (e.g., George Washington, John Dickinson, Caesar Rodney, William Livingston, George Wythe, John Randolph of Roanoke, and others). Furthermore, many of the Founders had never owned any slaves. For example, John Adams proclaimed, "[M]y opinion against it [slavery] has always been known . . . [N]ever in my life did I own a slave." 9
Notice a few additional examples of the strong anti-slavery sentiments held by great numbers of the Founders:
[W]hy keep alive the question of slavery? It is admitted by all to be a great evil. 10 CHARLES CARROLL, SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION
As Congress is now to legislate for our extensive territory lately acquired, I pray to Heaven that they may build up the system of the government on the broad, strong, and sound principles of freedom. Curse not the inhabitants of those regions, and of the United States in general, with a permission to introduce bondage [slavery]. 11 JOHN DICKINSON, SIGNER OF THE CONSTITUTION; GOVERNOR OF PENNSYLVANIA
That men should pray and fight for their own freedom and yet keep others in slavery is certainly acting a very inconsistent, as well as unjust and perhaps impious, part. 12 JOHN JAY, PRESIDENT OF CONTINENTAL CONGRESS, ORIGINAL CHIEF JUSTICE U. S. SUPREME COURT
The whole commerce between master and slave is a perpetual exercise of the most boisterous passions, the most unremitting despotism on the one part, and degrading submissions on the other. . . . And with what execration [curse] should the statesman be loaded, who permitting one half the citizens thus to trample on the rights of the other. . . . And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are of the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever. 13 THOMAS JEFFERSON
Christianity, by introducing into Europe the truest principles of humanity, universal benevolence, and brotherly love, had happily abolished civil slavery. Let us who profess the same religion practice its precepts . . . by agreeing to this duty. 14 RICHARD HENRY LEE, PRESIDENT OF CONTINENTAL CONGRESS; SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION
I hope we shall at last, and if it so please God I hope it may be during my life time, see this cursed thing [slavery] taken out. . . . For my part, whether in a public station or a private capacity, I shall always be prompt to contribute my assistance towards effecting so desirable an event. 15 WILLIAM LIVINGSTON, SIGNER OF THE CONSTITUTION; GOVERNOR OF NEW JERSEY
[I]t ought to be considered that national crimes can only be and frequently are punished in this world by national punishments; and that the continuance of the slave-trade, and thus giving it a national sanction and encouragement, ought to be considered as justly exposing us to the displeasure and vengeance of Him who is equally Lord of all and who views with equal eye the poor African slave and his American master. 16 LUTHER MARTIN, DELEGATE AT CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION
As much as I value a union of all the States, I would not admit the Southern States into the Union unless they agree to the discontinuance of this disgraceful trade [slavery]. 17
Honored will that State be in the annals of history which shall first abolish this violation of the rights of mankind. 18 JOSEPH REED, REVOLUTIONARY OFFICER; GOVERNOR OF PENNSYLVANIA
Domestic slavery is repugnant to the principles of Christianity. . . . It is rebellion against the authority of a common Father. It is a practical denial of the extent and efficacy of the death of a common Savior. It is an usurpation of the prerogative of the great Sovereign of the universe who has solemnly claimed an exclusive property in the souls of men. 19 BENJAMIN RUSH, SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION
Justice and humanity require it [the end of slavery]-Christianity commands it. Let every benevolent . . . pray for the glorious period when the last slave who fights for freedom shall be restored to the possession of that inestimable right. 20 NOAH WEBSTER, RESPONSIBLE FOR ARTICLE I, SECTION 8, 8 OF THE CONSTITUTION
Slavery, or an absolute and unlimited power in the master over the life and fortune of the slave, is unauthorized by the common law. . . . The reasons which we sometimes see assigned for the origin and the continuance of slavery appear, when examined to the bottom, to be built upon a false foundation. In the enjoyment of their persons and of their property, the common law protects all. 21 JAMES WILSON, SIGNER OF THE CONSTITUTION; U. S. SUPREME COURT JUSTICE
[I]t is certainly unlawful to make inroads upon others . . . and take away their liberty by no better means than superior power. 22 JOHN WITHERSPOON, SIGNER OF THE DECLARATION
For many of the Founders, their feelings against slavery went beyond words. For example, in 1774, Benjamin Franklin and Benjamin Rush founded America's first anti-slavery society; John Jay was president of a similar society in New York. In fact, when signer of the Constitution William Livingston heard of the New York society, he, as Governor of New Jersey, wrote them, offering:
I would most ardently wish to become a member of it [the society in New York] and . . . I can safely promise them that neither my tongue, nor my pen, nor purse shall be wanting to promote the abolition of what to me appears so inconsistent with humanity and Christianity. . . . May the great and the equal Father of the human race, who has expressly declared His abhorrence of oppression, and that He is no respecter of persons, succeed a design so laudably calculated to undo the heavy burdens, to let the oppressed go free, and to break every yoke. 23
Other prominent Founding Fathers who were members of societies for ending slavery included Richard Bassett, James Madison, James Monroe, Bushrod Washington, Charles Carroll, William Few, John Marshall, Richard Stockton, Zephaniah Swift, and many more. In fact, based in part on the efforts of these Founders, Pennsylvania and Massachusetts began abolishing slavery in 1780; 24 Connecticut and Rhode Island did so in 1784; 25 Vermont in 1786; 26 New Hampshire in 1792; 27 New York in 1799; 28 and New Jersey did so in 1804. 29
Additionally, the reason that Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Iowa all prohibited slavery was a Congressional act, authored by Constitution signer Rufus King 30 and signed into law by President George Washington, 31 which prohibited slavery in those territories. 32 It is not surprising that Washington would sign such a law, for it was he who had declared:
I can only say that there is not a man living who wishes more sincerely than I do to see a plan adopted for the abolition of it [slavery]. 33
The truth is that it was the Founding Fathers who were responsible for planting and nurturing the first seeds for the recognition of black equality and for the eventual end of slavery. This was a fact made clear by Richard Allen.
Allen had been a slave in Pennsylvania but was freed after he converted his master toChristianity. Allen, a close friend of Benjamin Rush and several other Founding Fathers, went on to become the founder of the A.M.E. Church in America. In an early address "To the People of Color," he explained:
Many of the white people have been instruments in the hands of God for our good, even such as have held us in captivity, [and] are now pleading our cause with earnestness and zeal. 34
While much progress was made by the Founders to end the institution of slavery, unfortunately what they began was not fully achieved until generations later. Yet, despite the strenuous effort of many Founders to recognize in practice that "all men are created equal," charges persist to the opposite. In fact, revisionists even claim that the Constitution demonstrates that the Founders considered one who was black to be only three-fifths of a person. This charge is yet another falsehood. The three-fifths clause was not a measurement of human worth; rather, it was an anti-slavery provision to limit the political power of slavery's proponents. By including only three-fifths of the total number of slaves in the congressional calculations, Southern States were actually being denied additional pro-slavery representatives in Congress. Based on the clear records of the Constitutional Convention, two prominent professors explain the meaning of the three-fifths clause:
[T]he Constitution allowed Southern States to count three-fifths of their slaves toward the population that would determine numbers of representatives in the federal legislature. This clause is often singled out today as a sign of black dehumanization: they are only three-fifths human. But the provision applied to slaves, not blacks. That meant that free blacks-and there were many, North as well as South-counted the same as whites. More important, the fact that slaves were counted at all was a concession to slave owners. Southerners would have been glad to count their slaves as whole persons. It was the Northerners who did not want them counted, for why should the South be rewarded with more representatives, the more slaves they held? 35 THOMAS WEST
It was slavery's opponents who succeeded in restricting the political power of the South by allowing them to count only three-fifths of their slave population in determining the number of congressional representatives. The three-fifths of a vote provision applied only to slaves, not to free blacks in either the North or South. 36 WALTER WILLIAMS
Why do revisionists so often abuse and misportray the three-fifths clause? Professor Walter Williams (himself an African-American) suggested:
Politicians, news media, college professors and leftists of other stripes are selling us lies and propaganda. To lay the groundwork for their increasingly successful attack on our Constitution, they must demean and criticize its authors. As Senator Joe Biden demonstrated during the Clarence Thomas hearings, the framers' ideas about natural law must be trivialized or they must be seen as racists. 37
While this has been only a cursory examination of the Founders and slavery, it is nonetheless sufficient to demonstrate the absurdity of the insinuation that the Founders were a collective group of racists. -
O.K., and I mean O.K., I am going to tell you all the PM that I sent to Otter, since in the last 24 hours, SHE HAS SENT ME 2 HARRASSING PMS. I believe in being totally honest and I am done with this and . Here is the pm I sent to her, supposed in private, but now for all of you to see.
I can't hold back any longer, you are the most arrogant poster on BreastCancer.org that I have heard. Thank the Lord, I will never see you. It has been 2 years now and your responses are so cold and heartless. I did not want to embarrass you, so I posted here. I am so sorry to say this to you, but I could not stand it any longer and I am going to off BreastCancer.org. Do you really think that you are so much better than everyone else here? So looking forward to never seeing your arrogant responses again.The End. Are you happy now, Otter and Athena???? . I can lift my head high now, that I am being totally honest, not to proud of my bad behavior with this, but I will ask my dear Lord for forgiveness. I did ask for your forgiveness, Otter, but you chose not to take the high road, and sent me two harassing pms. And in response to your negative pms, I will only ;pray for you, Kathy
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No one said that the founders were racist. If they did, I must have missed it. However, Michele Bachmann said in a recent speech that John Quincy Adams ended slavery. She went on at some lengths about it. This indicates to me that she either is ignorant of basic American History or that her knowledge is so recent that she has completely muddled the time line and confused the major players.
It has been reported that the reason she appears to be looking off to the side in her SOTU response is that she was facing the Tea Party Express camera and the CNN camera was off to the side. It turns out that the Tea Party Express camera had technical difficulties and her speech did not appear on their website as planned. The only record of her speech is from CNN. She is an attractive woman but her makeup and lighting made her look strange.
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Kathy .. what you wrote to Otter was mean and hurtful. There was no reason for you to do that .. it was pure meanness. I'm glad you can pray for forgiveness. I'm not as forgiving as Otter .. I would put you on "ignore" and be done with you.
About Bachman's speech and her cute little charts. The data was wrong. Her charts did not show the debt Obama inherited. She stated the stimulus was a failure ... wrong. It prevented a total banking collapse, saved the American car industry and many other things.
Bachman does not want a law prevent preexisting medical conditions. She doesn't want our children with preexisting medical conditions covered right now.
She believes all those poor people who can't afford medical insurance should just shop around and buy some insurance.
She is woefully ignorant on most issues. Watching her speak is embarrassing because it shows how little she actually knows about our government and our history. And it draws into question the type of people who would actually vote for her.
Bren
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Thank you, Bren. And Amen.
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Shirley
I notice your article has numbers for footnotes but you did not include them. If it was for the sake of space, thank you. The post was simply too long to read. for something that was just a cut and paste of quotes. I would love to hear your thoughts.
I think we all understand that slavery was a complicated issue for our country and took a long time to get rid of. What I object to in what Bachman said was not about slavery but that in our entire history all people regardless of where they came from had equal opportunities. That is an insult to everyone from every group that was ever discriminated against, from the Irish and other Catholics to Jews to blacks to Hispanics and on and on. I know I have left out groups, there are so many. It is true that in many cases , but not for example in the case of those who were brought over here as slaves, that opportunities were and are greater here than where they came from but there is now and has always been discriminaion in this country and to say there never has been is to rewrite history.
Edited for obvious typos
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Shirley - you can post all the loooong articles you want - Bachmann screwed up royally in her little treatise on slavery. Do you believe the founding fathers were alive and fighting slavery during the civil war? It was all so long ago it just kind of runs together, doesn't it. Those libs are so hung up on details. She and her supporters need to fess up and say, "Sorry, I got mixed up". But, no, they'll try to find some lib conspiracy to blame it on. At least, Katie Couric will be safe this time.
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Kathy - it is really way past time to drop this. You keep promising or threatening to leave, and yet you keep turning up. If you decide to leave, leave. If you decide to stay, stay. Just please quit coming on here and telling us about it. Whatever your decision, I wish you well.
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I can't figure out why Bachman would even suggest that the founding men in 1776 were trying to abolish slavery. If that is the case, and they were so adamant on that issue, why in heck did the Civil War need to happen over 100 years later?! When I lived in the southern US as a young teenager many decades ago, I learned in class that the south did not lose in the civil war, that they won a moral victory. At 14 I was mighty confused by the logic and see that instead of sorting out the facts, some people have gone to even greater lengths to make up a better story.
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I thought it was so ironic that CNN covered Bachman's speech .. but not one word of it on their website this morning. Could be they're having buyer's remorse.
Lassie .. down here they are still waving the confederate flag. Doesn't surprise me that years ago history was rewritten to suit the south.
Bren
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House leader Eric Cantor is not happy with Bachman. duh.
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I have a request.
Does anyone know of convenient links to the text (transcripts) of last night's speeches by Obama, Ryan, and Bachmann? I've had no luck so far, although I haven't spent a lot of time on this project yet.
I can't use video links, because of our slow internet connection; and I'd rather not read a version that someone else has chewed up and digested for me. There are a few folks hanging around this thread who are really good at tracking down links to original sources. Any advice? I was distracted by something else last night (there was a basketball game on another channel), and I need to get back on track.
otter
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Hi Otter ... I wonder if you could find the original text on one of the Tea Party website. I'll check Tea Party Nation for you.
Bren
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http://edition.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/01/25/sotu.response.bachmann/
Hi Otter .. here is a transcript. The original transcript is just below the youtube clip.
Bren
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Otter - if you put transcript in the search box on cnn.com, all three speeches will come up.
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Whoa. See, I knew some of you were smarter than I am! Thanks, Bren and Alpal. (Hey, Allison -- how's your snow up there in KY land? Got much?)
otter
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You know, I take some sort of perverse satisfaction when the weatherman is wrong. Last night they changed our Winter Storm Warning to a Winter Weather Alert. NOT! It's been coming down for hours and doesn't look like it's stopping any time soon. I-75 is closed in several places and who knows how Lexington is going to get their students home this afternoon. The busy street in front of my house is an absolute mess and cars are crawling. Was it Fla - Ga you were watching last night? I was getting regular updates from my better half.
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I am going to make a risky prediction. The "left" loved the speech and though he was great. The "right" thought he was arrogant and did not address where all the money was going to come from.
Am I close?
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