Does alternative medicine kill?

Interesting blog:

http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2009/03/does_alternative_medicine_use_result_in.php

Does alternative medicine use result in worse outcomes in breast cancer?

Has it really been that long?

More than two years ago, I wrote a post entitled Death by Alternative Medicine: Who's to Blame? The topic of the post was a case report that I had heard while visiting the tumor board of an affiliate of my former cancer center describing a young woman who had rejected conventional therapy for an eminently treatable breast cancer and then returned two or three years later with a large, nasty tumor that was much more difficult to treat and possibly metastatic to the bone, which, if ture, would have made it no longer even possibly curable. My discussion centered on what the obligation of physicians are to such patients who utterly refuse the science_ and evidence_based medicine that we know to be able to cure them of a potentially fatal disease and centered on the reaction of one oncologist who stated that it is the collected "our fault" (as in all the physicians who saw her) that she ended up this way because "we" had failed to persuade her that what she was doing would at the very least delay her treatment and make it much harder to treat her when her tumor did progress to the point where she realized that whatever woo she had chose was not working and at the very worse cost her her life. Even more compelling and sad, this patient was young, in her late 30s, and had three young children. Her husband had even filed for divorce and custody of the children on the quite reasonable, but no doubt painful to come to, basis that she would soon no longer be able to take care of them and had rebuffed all attempts to persuade her to accept science_ and evidence_based medical care that could still possibly save her life.

Since that post, I've always been meaning to take a look at what, exactly, the effect of choosing "alternative" medicine over "conventional" medicine is on the odds of survival for breast cancer patients. Even though intuitively one would hypothesize that refusing scientific medicine and relying on placebo medicine instead would have a detrimental effect on survival, it turns out that this question is not as easy to answer as one might think. For example, if you do a search on PubMed using terms like "alternative medicine," "breast cancer," and "survival," the vast majority of the hits will be studies of complementary and alternative medicine (CAM) and breast cancer with little reference to what possible effect these therapies might have on overall survival and breast cancer_related mortality. I can speculate about several posisble reasons for this, although I don't know how valid my guesses are as to why. The first reason may be that__thankfully__relatively few women use alternative medicine primarily or exclusively to treat their breast cancers. It can't be overstated how this is a very good thing. Also, those who do use only alternative medicine probably drop off the radar screen of their "conventinal" doctors, and it is difficult, if not impossible, to capture data regarding their outcomes. All too often they stick with their alternative healers until the end, going from one to another as their tumors eat through their skin and ravage their bodies. True, they may pop up again in their surgeon's or primary care doctor's office with huge, fungating tumors, only to be told that they have to undergo chemotherapy to shrink the tumor before any surgery is possible, after which they will often disappear again.

Another important reason is that the natural history of breast cancer is extremely variable, from nasty, aggressive tumors that kill within months to indolent, slow_growing tumors that, even when metastatic, women can survive with for several years. (It is, of course, these women who usually show up in "alternative medicine" testimonials, because they can survive a long time with little or no treatment before their tumors progress.) Because it's important to understand the natural history of breast cancer, I'll reference a classic study examining the natural history of untreated breast cancer. It was published in 1962 by H. J. G. Bloom, W. W. Richardson, and E. J. Harries, and examined data from Middlesex Hospital from 1805 to 1933 where 250 cases of untreated breast cancer were identified and studied. They calculated survival as the period of time from onset of symptoms to death. What they found was that 18% of the 250 patients survived five years; 3.6% survived 10 years; and 0.8% survived 15 years. Of note, it was 19 years before all patients were dead. Overall, the median survival was 2.7 years. A survival graph from this classic paper is below:

It should be noted that all of these tumors were detected as (at the very minimum) lumps in the breast, given that there was no other way of detecting them at the time. However, the reason we go back to this study time and time again is because, at least in developed countries, it is the rare woman with breast cancer who does not undergo treatment of some kind for it. These days, most tumors are detected at far less advanced stages; indeed, most are detected by mammography. What that means is that, if such a study could be done today, it is very likely that lead time bias would significantly increase the apparent median survival, because increasingly tiny tumors are being found. It is also possible that a significant number of very small tumors might spontaneously regress, which further complicates the issue today, not to mention making it easier to find women who have rejected some or all of "conventional" medicine to treat their cancers and survived significant lengths of time to produce alternative medicine testimonials.

With this background, I have found a couple of studies that can help answer the question. The first one was published in 2005 in the Annals of Surgery by a group in from Geneva University Hospitals. This study involved a search of Switzerland's database between 1975 and 2000 and included 5,339 patients diagnosed with nonmetastatic breast cancer. The strength of this study is that the Geneva Cancer Registry includes data from all patients from the Geneva canton who underwent treatment and allowed the investigators to compare the outcomes of the women who refused to undergo surgery with curative intent with those who underwent surgery. In the Registry, there were identified 70 patients (1.3%) who refused surgery and concluded:

These women [those who refused surgery] were older, more frequently single, and had larger tumors. Overall, 37 (53%) women had no treatment, 25 (36%) hormone_therapy alone, and 8 (11%) other adjuvant treatments alone or in combination. Five_year specific breast cancer survival of women who refused surgery was lower than that of those who accepted (72%, 95% confidence interval, 60%_84% versus 87%, 95% confidence interval, 86%_88%, respectively). After accounting for other prognostic factors including tumor characteristics and stage, women who refused surgery had a 2.1_fold (95% confidence interval, 1.5_3.1) increased risk to die of breast cancer compared with operated women.

It is true that this is not a randomized study; rather, it is a retrospective study. Consequently, it is impossible to rule out selection bias, but, as the authors point out, this is one case where doing a randomized study is unethical. Moreover, half the women accepted some form of other standard, effective treatm,ent, such as hormonal therapy alone. In any case, what this study shows is that women with no surgery can still live a long time, but are far more likely to die of their cancer than women who do undergo surgical extirpation.

But what about alternative medicine?

As far as I can find, there is one study that specifically looked at the question of what happens to women who opt for alternative medicine instead of scientific medicine. This study, like the one I just cited, was published in the surgical literature, specifically the American Journal of Surgery. Given the nature of the question it was seeking to answer, its design is single_armed and retrospective, using prognosis estimated by Adjuvant! Online, an online tool into which clinicians can enter prognostic factors of a breast cancer at the time of presentation and come up with an estimate of chances of survival and recurrence with and without treatment. This, of course, is a weakness, but, again, randomizing patients to scientific medicine or alternative medicine would be completely unethical. In the case of such questions, we scientists have to make do with whatever methodology we can; i.e., do the best we can with what we have. Unfortunately, the study was also small, only 33 patients. Even so, given the huge difficulties involved in undertaking such a study, the investigators, who, as private practitioners operating a community practice in Eugene, OR, went above and beyond the call by trying to look at their data and answer this question. That their study has a number of shortcomings is not their fault; they appear to haved done the best they could with what they had, which includes patients who underwent a panoply of alternative therapies, including coral calcium, herbal therapy, mushrooms, high dose vitamins, whey, chelation therapy, hemlock, and coenzyme Q10.

So what were their findings?

They're summed up in the following table:

The authors comment:

We found that the overwhelming majority of the patients who initially refused surgical treatment for breast cancer developed disease progression. Five of these patients ultimately underwent surgical resection. Of the other 6 patients, 5 had developed metastatic disease that precluded benefit from surgery. Furthermore, the disease progression caused by the delay in surgery was associated with an increase in the estimated 10_year mortality rate.

Patients who declined chemotherapy or hormone therapy faired slightly better. Optimism for this strategy should be severely tempered by the fact that the length of follow_up evaluation in these patients was relatively short, and these patients had early stage (I or II) disease. By software estimates, the 10_year mortality rate for these patients is still expected to be more than 50% higher than it would have been if the patients had taken their recommended therapy.

A number of patients who expressed their intention to pursue alternative therapies did not return for follow_up evaluation. Attempts were made to contact these patients. Those for whom follow_up evaluation was unavailable were excluded from this study. Although their omission may introduce a selection bias in the results, the effect of this bias is expected to be small because relatively few patients (14 of 47) were in this category.

I find two points important about this study. First, it confirms once again the importance of surgery as a primary therapeutic modality for breast cancer, especially early stage. Second, and more importantly, it strongly suggests that foregoing or delaying surgery or chemotherapy is at the very least associated with a significantly decreased chance of recurrence_free survival. The authors do note that it is impossible to tell whether this increase in mortality was solely due to delay or refusal of effective therapy or whether the modalities chosen were deleterious. My guess is that it was almost certainly due to the ineffectiveness of the alternative therapies chosen.

More evidence of the uselessness of "alternative" medicine in breast cancer was published two years ago by Edzard Ernst, author of Healing, Hype or Harm? A Critical Analysis of Complementary or Alternative Medicine. Ernst, as you might recall, was formerly a CAM advocate. In 2006, he wrote a review for the Breast Journal along with Katja Schmidt, MSc, C Psychol, and Michael Baum, MD, ChM, a review entitled Complementary/Alternative Therapies for the Treatment of Breast Cancer. A Systematic Review of Randomized Clinical Trials and a Critique of Current Terminology. The objective of the study was to examine all studies randomized clinical trials (RCTs) for "alternative cancer cures" (ACCs). Treatments examined included various methods of psychosocial support such as group support therapy, cognitive behavioral therapy cognitive existential group therapy, a combination of muscle relaxation training and guided imagery, the Chinese herbal remedy Shi Quan Da Bu Tang, thymus extract, transfer factor, melatonin, and factor AF2.

The first finding was that the methodological quality of the studies was, by and large, pretty low. The most common deficiencies included: lack of power sample calculation; small sample size; lack of adequate randomization and/or (patient and assessor or only assessor) blinding; and insufficient follow_up periods. It was noted that only one trial applied an intention to treat analysis. From the 15 studies Ernst examined, this is what he concluded:

The totality of the data fails to show a single intervention that would be demonstrably effective as an ACC. The paucity and the often_low methodological quality of the RCTs are as unexpected to us as they are disappointing. Most trails had small sample sizes; thus a type II error is conceivable. But even if this were true, one would be correct in stating that to date, no effective ACC has been identified.

A lot of this is, of course, true based on discussions of prior plausibility alone. One could argue that, given the poor quality of the studies examined by Ernst, there might be an effect that was missed. However, if an effect were missed, it would have to be small, and small effects are not what is claimed for many of these ACCs. What is often claimed is a near_miraculous "cure" for cancer, which, if it were true, would be relatively easy to detect. As I've often argued about, for example, the Gonzalez regimen for pancreatic cancer, if such ACCs really were cures, it would actually be fairly easy to show. In the case of pancreatic cancer, for instance, just producing well documented case reports of a few five year survivors among patients with documented metastatic adenocarcinoma of the pancreas would, I daresay, make even me sit up and take notice. Somehow, we never see this. Of course, what makes the question in breast cancer more difficult to answer is its highly variable natural history. Few people with metastatic pancreatic cancer survive more than one year (Patrick Swayze is one of those lucky few), fewer still longer than two; lots of women with even metastatic breast cancer do.

Putting it all together, even given the relative paucity of studies, I conclude that there is nonetheless no compelling evidence for a significant survival benefit due to any "alternative" therapy, nor is there even good evidence for significant treatment effects. The studies that do purport to show an effect are virtually all plagued with methodological difficulties and tend to show effects that are barely above background noise. The vast majority of them are retrospective and difficult to interpret, and what evidence is out there is that alternative medicine use among breast cancer patients is associated with an increased risk of dying from cancer, particularly when conventional therapy is eschewed. Taken together, these data make it very hard not to conclude that at best the vast majority of alternative therapies are either useless, no more than placebos, or that some of them might even be harmful. That is why they have no role in science_based medicine at present.

As Edzard Ernst put it:

The idea of an "alternative cancer cure" assumes that conventional oncology would not adopt a cancer treatment simply because it originates from an area outside of mainstream medicine. We feel that, should such a cure one day emerge, it would be investigated without delay by oncologists and adopted into routine care as soon as the data supporting it are convincing. Plant_based cancer medications such as Vincristin and Vinblastin (both extracted from the plant Vinca rosea) or Taxol (Taxus baccata) could be employed to back up this theory. It follows that the term ACC is and most likely will always be a contradiction in terms.

As I frequently put it: There is no such thing as "alternative" medicine. There is medicine that is effective, medicine that is not, and medicine that has not been tested yet. Nearly all of so_called "alternative" medicine falls into one of the latter two categories, and those that have not been tested yet nearly all fall into the category of being so wildly improbable that testing them without more positive evidence makes no sense. In any case, as a cancer surgeon, I don't care where a therapy came from. I really don't. If someone could show me that reiki or homeopathy cures cancer, I'd use either. In the meantime, I will continue to argue that the very concept of "alternative" medicine is a false dichotomy. Unfortunately, it's a false dichotomy that can kill.

«1

Comments

  • ElaineD
    ElaineD Member Posts: 2,265
    edited November 2009

    Fascinating Teild-and saying what the vast majority of us believe to be the case. I particularly like your last paragraph. I think it might be an idea if your post could be stickied on this forum, to protect vulnerable people who are desperate to find some way of controlling their disease, and who are frightened of conventional treatment.

  • phoenixsmom
    phoenixsmom Member Posts: 58
    edited December 2009

    I went to a Naturopath and received alot of natural therapy as well as chemotherapy.  My ND's philosophy is hit it with everything we've got.  I was lucky to have achieved a complete pathological response to my cancer, but I feel that I really kicked the crap out of it from all angles.  The crappy thing about cancer, is that you really only get one good shot at it. 

    I was told of several young ladies who passed away in my town because they chose to go natural only, (that is what I wanted to do as well, but decided otherwise). I have also heard of many who survive and become cancer free without treatment, and then there are those who pass away because of treatment.  There's risk involved no matter what you choose.  Only you can choose what's right for you.

  • Hindsfeet
    Hindsfeet Member Posts: 2,456
    edited December 2009

    phoenixsmom, simply and perfectly said!

  • LJ13-2
    LJ13-2 Member Posts: 235
    edited December 2009

    Precisely describes the problem. Those who choose ONLY alternative treatments go off the grid. There is no cancer registrar for them. No one to compile the statistics. No one goes back to check the body counts years later.

  • Teild
    Teild Member Posts: 58
    edited September 2010
  • guinol3d
    guinol3d Member Posts: 10
    edited September 2010

    Definitively kills. My friend passed away one year ago. She opted for Vitamin C injections only, refusing classical medicine. When she decided to go with real treatment it was to late. It is really terrible story...

  • flash
    flash Member Posts: 1,685
    edited September 2010

    I do believe in complementary but I'm so glad someone put some numbers available on alternative.  I watched alternative almost kill a friend of mine.  the question is, how many women that start alternative then switch when its too late?  Go with proven and supplement with theory.

  • Member_of_the_Club
    Member_of_the_Club Member Posts: 3,646
    edited September 2010

    I think there's this idea out there that mainstream medicine is bad because pharmaceutical companies are profit driven while alternative is somehow pure.  But alternative medicine is a HUGE industry, unregulated at that.  There are people and companies making big money off this stuff.  So there's a profit motive all around and we just have to make sure we're getting a benefit for the money spent on treatment.

  • AnneW
    AnneW Member Posts: 4,050
    edited September 2010

    MOTC, that point needs to be repeated more--Big Naturo is as profit-driven as Big Pharma. No need to regulate, no need to substantiate, no need to run controlled research studies to validate. Just correlate your product to some body function or symptom, and market the hell out of it.

    I'm not making a value judgment on either.

    Anne

  • gutsy
    gutsy Member Posts: 391
    edited October 2010

    I do believe in complimentary treatment and are currently doing both. Complementary for me means a diet high in fruits, vegetables, and grains and no dairy, meats and processed foods. Regular exercise, acupuncture, supplements, yoga, etc. I would never do only alternative, but I don't fault people who do.

  • Hindsfeet
    Hindsfeet Member Posts: 2,456
    edited October 2010

    Most people I've known who chose conventional therapy died. Surgery is good, and perhaps rads...most other conventional treatment I would never consider.

    Personally, I prefer to find out what the body is missing, or needs. The body knows how to heal itself. I have a hard time with chemo that destroys the immune system that is suppose to heal you. I have a friend who has cancer...just went through a bout of chemo. She had a big end of treatment party last week only to find out this week the tumor has grown twice the size. She's back on chemo again.

    People die in both camps. One doc said that his patients that are positive about life have a better chance of surving than those who tend to be negative and or fearful. Perhaps it's a mental attiutde or our faith that gives us a better chance of survival.

  • Member_of_the_Club
    Member_of_the_Club Member Posts: 3,646
    edited October 2010

    Most people I know who chose conventional therapy are still alive.  Including several I know whose survival chances (different cancers) were in the single digits.

  • JeninMichigan
    JeninMichigan Member Posts: 2,974
    edited October 2010

    I completely believe in a complimentary program.   I see both a medical oncologist and a naturalist doctor.    Do I do everything the naturalist tells me? ... well no not really.  But I do take much of his advise and it is good advise. Diet and balancing my ph has made a world of difference in my GI track.   I take alot of antioxidants and supplements.  My vit D, B vits, Calcium, Omegas, CoQ10 are all up to snuff,.  You know what, besides being Stage IV for nearly three years and NED for well over 2 of those years, my cholesterol is very low, my muga scans for my heart are great and I have not had as much as a common cold in a year.   I don't agree with going all alternative but the combination of the two medicines together are a winner.   Just like finding a medical doctor, it is imperative you find a naturalist you trust. 

    Jennifer

  • 1Athena1
    1Athena1 Member Posts: 6,696
    edited October 2010

    Rather ironic that we should be having a debate about conventional vs. alternative medicine in the context of breast cancer - a disease with no known cure by conventional or alternative or extraterrestrial means. If this debate were about other illnesses that have a cure it would make a bit more sense to me. As it is, we are all rather stuck in purgatory here. Me, I believe in science-based approaches, but that has little strength for breast cancer, since they know so little. 

  • Fearless_One
    Fearless_One Member Posts: 3,300
    edited October 2010

    Once again, I have to agree with Athena.   There is no cure on either fence, so I cannot slam alternative medicine.   I have known people to die from both conv and alt treatment and I have known people to live years from both.  

  • Member_of_the_Club
    Member_of_the_Club Member Posts: 3,646
    edited October 2010

    Well, the cure thing is complicated.  If my cancer never returns and I live decades more before dying of something else -- the case for most women who have bc -- then aren't I cured?  Even though at no point will a doctor be able to say to me "you are cured?"  And if its conventional medicine that gives me that long cancer-free life, I would think the treatment cured me, no?

  • JeninMichigan
    JeninMichigan Member Posts: 2,974
    edited October 2010

    To me, it is not a matter of being cured.   I don't expect neither conventional nor alternative medicine to cure me.  I know I have a chronic condition.  What I want though is the healthiest body I can in order to stay cancer free for as long as possible.  And when the beast returns I want to be in great shape to take the chemo once again.  During chemo, I will continue to take all of my antioxidants and supplements.  When I went through chemo I missed only a day or two of work and never got infections or other illnesses.  I would be thrilled to die of something else so I can say this damn cancer didn't kill me. ... as long as that something else doesn't happen in the next 10 years. 

    Jennifer

  • CrunchyPoodleMama
    CrunchyPoodleMama Member Posts: 1,220
    edited August 2013

    Part of the problem with dismissing alternative medicine based on a few case studies is there is a LOT of quackery out there being called alternative medicine, and any example of the failure of shark cartilage or Swiss nun's urine or what-have-you as a standalone treatment will be heartily lambasted by the medical establishment (and rightly so). The problem is that there is no attempt by conventional medicine to distinguish between a quacky "treatment" that is not part of a complete diet/lifestyle change, and a truly holistic radically anti-cancer lifestyle.

    Although I'm a die-hard believer in proven alternative approaches to healing, as others have said, conventional medicine absolutely has its place. I feel it's foolish to pursue conventional treatment only without also radically changing what caused the cancer in the first place (and yes, in at least 90% of cases, there are factors that can be identified). But, it's probably reckless to pursue alternative-only if it's something that conventional medicine excels at treating. If I broke my arm, I'd head to the E.R., not "treat" with herbal tea. That's the thinking that led me to have surgery for my DCIS but decline radiation and Tamoxifen... a very evidence-based, logical choice for me.

  • Joannan
    Joannan Member Posts: 136
    edited October 2010

    grrrrrrrr sorry, I have to comment.

    My sister is stage 4 with mets to spine and in nodes around her chest area. She had a PET scan back in about June that showed the progression up.

     She was on a hormone blocker but went through menopause and didnt have it changed.

     Anyhow, she started on another anabolic steroid Halotesten. It made her really nauseous but she kept taking it and didnt contact her onco. BTW she has had cancer for about 9 years, and hasnt ever had chemo or anything, was DCIS...had a mastectomy and then went the total alternate route.

    The cancer progressed and she had swelling in her nodes around the collar bone a couple of years ago...I argued and pleaded with her to have chemo but she kept doing whatever...

    Now spread to spine, maybe in lungs, it's all around her lungs and she has had a cough for about eight months (which I bought to her attention which is how she came to have the PET scan).

    Well, back to the Halotestin...she couldnt eat or even drink apparently because she was so nauseous....eventually stopped the hormone.....she probably has liver damage...she went to a natropath who told her it was her digestive system thats all out of whack....I asked her if she has called her onco...no....isnt going to contact him til her supposed ruined digestive system is better....hasnt been to a normal doctor....hasnt had liver levels checked, sayd they cant get any blood. 

    Now she's doing Theta healing *sigh* and the lastest....thermal imaging...stupid woman told her that it looks like she doesnt even have cancer, or it's not 'that bad'....she's going to buy some CREAM!!!! to rub on the cancer which supposedly 'draws cancer cells out of the body'!!!

     I am sooo angry...I am angry with my sister. I feel like she has completely lost her ability to think rationally.....I cant talk to her about this at all....I mean, it's ridiculous!!!!! It's bloody ridiculous!! How could my otherwise very intelligent sister falll for this crap!!

     Sorry. I believe there's a place for alternate medicine, but my sister is killing herself. Before, the alternate meds she was taking at least had some validity...she has lost the plot. 

    I cannot speak to her aboutthis, no one can. She hasnt spokne to her doctor or just a normal doctor....instead she's seeing these quacks....She tells me (she lives a long way from me, I havent seen her), that she weighs less then 50kilos (about 7 - 7.5 stone), before she was about 60 kilos....she says she's skin and bones....well, go and see a doctor!!!

    Im really angry with her, I dont want to know about it, she will die and isnt doing the things she needs to do that could hold the cancer at bay.

  • CrunchyPoodleMama
    CrunchyPoodleMama Member Posts: 1,220
    edited October 2010

    Joannan, I'm so sorry to hear about your sister. Although as I said above I'm a firm believer in alternative/complementary treatment that's part of a complete diet/lifestyle and (when it makes sense) in conjunction with conventional medical treatment, it sounds from what you've described she's getting dangerous advice.

    (BTW, if she had DCIS, she was not supposed to have chemo... mastectomy with hormonal treatment was and is considered the most aggressive standard-of-care by conventional treatment. She did all the "medically correct" things when she was first diagnosed. Sadly, since she had an invasive recurrence, conventional medicine's standard of care let her down, which may be the reason she's distrustful of it now.)

    Have you talked with your sister about joining this forum? We would love to talk with her about alternative treatment, but she might also listen to a voice of reason here about when it's wise to consider conventional medicine as well. I know you're frustrated, and rightly so... you love your sister and hate to see her what seems to be throwing her chance for health away. Please tell her we want to meet her here on the alternative treatment forum.

  • 1Athena1
    1Athena1 Member Posts: 6,696
    edited October 2010

    Joannan, I am really sorry to hear about your sister and your fury is completely understandable. I wonder if she simply can't face her onc.

    The truth, though, is that there most definitely is no cure for stage IV. There is also no way of knowing whether if she had gone to an onc as soon as things looked strange after her bout with DCIS it would have made a difference. Early detection as prevention has been debunked by a series of recent study. Some cancers will be deadly regardless of how early they are caught. Even mammograms are not shown to save lives for the overwhelming majority of women. 

    What you are witnessing from afar is horrific and your sister is very likely in an abject state of denial. I would be climbing the walls too. Tragically, though, with breast cancer at this stage it doesn't make much difference. Head over to the Stage IV thread to see how some of the sisters there are doing. Treatment can prolong their lives and some remain well, but others live constantly ill, not very fit or in constant pain. Which is NOT to say they are making bad treatment choices. Not at all. It simply says that this can be a deadly disease with few alternatives.

  • Member_of_the_Club
    Member_of_the_Club Member Posts: 3,646
    edited October 2010

    Athena, it is very unusual for even stage IV women not to get some benefit from treatment.  Most will survive years, sometimes many years with mets because there are so many treatments out there -- one stops working and you move on to the next.  I do know a woman who got no benefit at all and died very quickly, but I also know a woman who has been living with mets now for well over 20 years, never NED, there has always been a next treatment for her.  The reality for most women who are stage IV is somewhere in the middle, but those being diagnosed with mets now should be very hopeful that with the current treatments they can live for years, and that something better will come along that they will live to see.

  • 1Athena1
    1Athena1 Member Posts: 6,696
    edited October 2010

    Because in some cases treatment for stage IV prolongs life while in others it is believed to hasten death the experience can go either way. Now, if I were Stage IV, I would certainly try conventional therapies, my huge, huge preference being surgery wherever and whenever possible, as well as bone drugs and radiotherapy and immunotherapy. I think I would try other experimental therapies (such as hyperthermia) and maybe even a rain dance before touching chemo, but that's just me.

    But unfortunately there are no statistics on survival trends at stage IV - on how long you survive after diagnosis. It is believed that bc stage IV patients are surviving for longer. It would make sense based on the sheer number of drugs that can be taken sequentially. However, as some else has said, SEER data doesn't record that. And the overall survival picture remains virtually unchanged over decades.

  • Joannan
    Joannan Member Posts: 136
    edited October 2010

    Hello Ladies, thanks for your replies.

     I guess I gave the wrong diagnosis....so my sister had dcis, but I guess it wasnt because it was already in several lymph nodes when she was diagnosed and had the mastectomy.

    Her advice was to have chemo, but she refused. At the time we all tried to respect her decision, and she was very knowledgable about the alternated things she used...must have cost them a fortune.

    She had a recurrence at site 18 mths later, and about a year to so later recurrence in the lympnodes around her collar bone. It was at that stage (a couple of years ago) that I broke and agued with her about her treatment choices. She continued with saunas and hundreds/thousands of dollars of stuff...Vit C infusions, juicing etc organic food only, micro wave therapy etc...

    several months ago I drew her attention to her cough...she still has it. So she had a pet scan and is in her spine, but she refused to find out how much. She had been on Arimidex I think which was holding her until menopause....doc put her on Halotestin....she is now extremely sick as I said...hasnt even been to a proper doctor or rang her onco.

    i was speaking to her yesterday...this cream that draws out the cancer cells....please!!! I am actually very concerned that she has had a breakdown or something and isnt thinking rationally....she has always been so on to all her treatments and researched them thoroughly (sp?).....

    How could I tell if she has had a breakdown I wonder....she is very strong willed....

     just have to accept things, it's very hard and I guess I (oops, dont know why it's italic..) was just letting off steam yesterday because I was angry and this is the only place where people get the whole thing. I love her dearly and repect her immensely....she has a 12 year old daughter.

  • Member_of_the_Club
    Member_of_the_Club Member Posts: 3,646
    edited October 2010

    There are stats about stage IV but I think you are right that they are out of date.  

  • Joannan
    Joannan Member Posts: 136
    edited October 2010

    i just know every day she wastes is a day she cant get back :( I've read on the st 4 site that women can live for many years with mets if they have the right treatments.

    I said to her yesterday that the effects of the 'cream' dont have any validity, and how much does it costs??? I told her she should have been in hospital because she said sh eoculdnt eat or drink...she seems afraid of hospitals......anyhow, she said that the normal treatments dont work either...

    I have tried to get her to visit the forum....I really do believe she is in dangerous denial. She wont visit the forum, Ive sent a coule of things through to her....she just...I dont know....i think it's fine to be in denial, but not if it means you're not getting the treatments you need....

    She lives a few thousand kilometres from me, about two days driving non stop....

    It's her life, she is an adult...I feel so helpless...

  • stayhealthy
    stayhealthy Member Posts: 5
    edited October 2010

    I also believe in the natural approaches if at all possble...There is only one cause of cancer and that is lack of oxygen to the cells discovered by  Otto Warburg MD Phd 2 time nobel winner in medicine...I will be happy to send anyone of what my husband wrote and gives it away free and comes from The Hidden Story Of Cancer by Brian Peskin.. A lot of it comes from medical school textbooks and Brian Connects the dots like no other you will ever read..Omega 6 is far more important than fish oil.  He will be glad to send  for free...You will be shocked of what you will learn..and the links provided ..

    His email is sid_aust@msn.com and he will farward it to you by attachment...

  • Claire_in_Seattle
    Claire_in_Seattle Member Posts: 4,570
    edited October 2010

    Joanan,

    I am so sorry about your sister, and her course of action certainly supports the case for conventional treatment as the primary course of action.  From what you now tell us, I believe she was Stage III  (4 or more lynph nodes affected).   You can plot diagnosis and outcomes on cancermath.net.  You deserve to be angry at her.  She might have become Stage IV anyway, but she had a much better chance with conventional treatment, difficult as it might be.

    I have a friend who chose one of these treatments over conventional chemo.  But she was Stage I and in a grey area.  So most likely nothing worse than draining her wallet.

    I am all for alternative therapies, but not as a replacement for conventional treatment.  An example accupuncture to alleviate pain, but not as a primary method of treatment.  Juicing is also fine, but again as part of a balanced diet which you should be eating anyway.

    I am hoping that you are able to get your sister into some conventional treatment, but it also sounds like she has gone far down the path, and it's getting late in the day.

    Which brings me back to a very important thing all of us need to do when loved ones are affected by something life threatening:  learn enough about the disease and treatment options so that alarm bells go off if someone is clearly headed down the wrong path.

    Thank you for sharing your story.  Please forgive and go support your sister.  She will need both. - Claire

  • Joannan
    Joannan Member Posts: 136
    edited November 2010

    thanks Claire

    Today is the only day that matters now....my sister became very dehydrated and finally got herself to emergency a few days ago. The cancer is now (in a matter of a couple of months) extensivly spread through her liver.

    There are no treatment options available because her liver is too compromised. There is still the possiblity of herceptin, but we dont know yet if she can get it (as it's supposed to be used in conjuction with chemo therapies). That or a miracvle are now her only hope.

    I do not blame her and I think my anger has fizzled out now. I think that she has actually done really well to keep the cancer at bay for several years (although it has really cost her a lot monetarily as well as peace of mind and stress)....it is unknown what her outcomes would have been if she had underwent conventional therapy (and not worth thinking about anymore).

     However, I do think that if she had chemo in July when her spinal mets were first discovered the cancer may have been held in check for a few years. Now it is too late. On the other hand, if she had chemo and the outcome was still the same (massive spread), she would have been telling herself that it was her fault because she had chemo. 

    I know what I would have done. But thank you Claire for suggesting I forgive her....I hadnt considered that, but reflecting on it I feel that (as I said), I have, and am no longer angry, just sad and accepting.

    She is still not ready to accept the situation yet, but that's okay....I just want her to be comfortable and at peace. I still hope she can get herceptin...I will let you know if she does.

  • lmc1970
    lmc1970 Member Posts: 168
    edited November 2010

    Hi Joannan,

     I just thought I would share my story since it is similar to your sister's. I was diagnosed stage 1 TNBC in 2006. I refused chemo but had surgery and radiation. Three years later I had 15/24 lymph nodes with cancer in them. I had surgery but after a bad reaction to chemo I refused to have anymore treatments. One year on from that I now have cancer in my supraclavicular nodes. I didn't do all the natural things that your sister does but I did try a few. Anyway now that I am stage 4 I am on chemo. Surgery wasn't an option.  I turned to my daughter and asked her what she would like me to do. In the end, it was going to effect her the most. Well of course she said chemo.

    I did what I thought was right at the time. Even chemo is no guarantee that your cancer won't return. Most of the stage 4'ers on here have had chemo. But when you are stage 4-most likely it is going to be your best chance of survival. I certainly know it is a hard decision to make but this time I made it for my daughter and not for myself....she needs her mummy and I will do whatever it takes to be here for her.

    Your sister has done well to battle this for 9 years. I just pray her next decision keeps her alive for many more. Loving her through all of this is a great gift...

     Lisa

Categories