November 2009-Starting Chemo

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  • Mouse6694
    Mouse6694 Member Posts: 88
    edited November 2009

    Wow computer was down for a few days and I got 3 pages behind. Welcome to all our new girls. My 2nd TX s/e's were different this time was fine for 4 days then 5th day couldnt smell or eat anything the taste in my mouth is just gross. Took shower lastnight and my buzzed hair was coming out in handfuls now I look like the Toy Story barbies with bald patches and my head is super sensitive. Gonna try to take daughter to see New Moon today I sure hope the popcorn is good but I know I will pay for it later with gas. LOL

    So glad Brenda is no metsKiss

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  • BrendaSharon
    BrendaSharon Member Posts: 506
    edited November 2009

    HI AGAIN  "Warriors"

    Just wanted to give you an update on portergirl99/Susie

    Portergirl99/Susie,sent me a PM just to let all of us know she is doing well and praying good things for all of us ladies.  She said this has all happened to fast for her and she needed to take a break from it or she didn't feel as though she could stop crying.  Her hair has begin to shed, her second chemo TX is this coming Wed.

    She also said tell tell you all, if you wanted a good laugh,Laughing

    She had her "SO " shave her head last night and they shaved it into a BIG ole MOHAWK!! She said her stepson's loved it!! So, they where able to share lots and lots of laughs and NO tears!!! She said to give love and hugs to each and everyone of you.

    This is her way of dealing with it, so I respect her for that. I am glad she is well and NO TEARS!!

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  • livelife
    livelife Member Posts: 38
    edited November 2009

    Hi.

    Just been reading all the posts about supporting our children through this. My girls are 15 and 19- they had to go through me having treatment 6 years ago for lymphoma so are 'old hands' at this- which is something childen should never be. I try and be as open as possible with them, then hopfully they will always feel that they can be open too.

    Sherri/SLV  I chose to wait until my hair started to fall out and didn't actually cut it until it really started falling our- I think you will know when the time has come. I am glad I didn't rush it. My husband and youngest did a bit each. The oldest is away at University but we keep her fully posted by phone. As the other girls have said- when we did it- it wa actually light hearted and we laughed- I think because it was the right time to do it.

    Boxer Sue I am thinking of you as you have such alot to deal with. I take a good headache/ sinus tablet called Syndol- not sure if you have it over there- it is codine, paracetamol and a muscle relaxant- it works so well !!! I notice Just me Alicia also recommended something with a muscle relaxant. If it helps I look in my 90's with my semi bald head- but the beauty of wigs is that we can soon look fab.

    Sounds like we have a fab lot of choldren between us- who will be stronger and more able to cope with challenges in life after this journey with their Mums.

    Welcome to the new girls- Mabelle and Milenen.

    Catch up with you all soon. xx

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  • CoolBreeze
    CoolBreeze Member Posts: 4,668
    edited November 2009

    BoxerSue.  My biggest fear in starting chemo is these headaches.  I've been a migraine sufferer for 22 years.  I get horrible, disabling headaches.  I have taken fioricet for them.  They help a little but I've been taking them a long time so they don't touch  a bad migraine, just a regular  headache. 

    Fioricet is a combination of Tylenol, Butalbital and Caffiene.  Butalbital is a barbituate.

    I've discussed this fear and my worry about migraines with my oncologist and I did not get a satisfactory answer.  He doesn't believe in prescribing narcotics.  (I already take narcotics anyway - norco (hydrocodone) and codiene.   So, I will need something stronger if I have this reaction - oxycodone or something.  What REALLY works for me is Imitrex, which is NOT a narcotic. But, it's very expensive and I only get a few a month.  I asked for him to pre-auth extras for me and he kind of hemmed and hawed.  I will tell you, the one SE I won't be able to deal with is a migraine.  And, I will be on the phone every hour until something is done and if nothing is done, I'll switch doctors.

    Anyway, I'm SO SORRY you are dealing with this.  My sympathies to you as I know what it's like to have headaches like that.  

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  • kayh
    kayh Member Posts: 37
    edited November 2009

    Just a short note to say I've been out of it for day 5 & 6. Glanced through the posts and will reply later when I can manage. A bit sick and headachey but mostly exhaustion.

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  • JustmeAlicia
    JustmeAlicia Member Posts: 1,529
    edited November 2009

    Kayh ~ feel better.  Day 4-7 were tough for me.  TODAY I was back from the dead and haven't stopped all day, although I'm exhausted now.

    Nite girls.... Hugs to all ~

    :)

    Alicia

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  • Shel
    Shel Member Posts: 41
    edited November 2009

    Dear Sisters, I haven't been on due to technical problems and fatigue.  This is day 4 for me and I really tried to take it easier this time.  Less activity, more liquids and lots of prunes.  So far it is working but if the schedule holds the next two days will be tough.  My hair started coming out today so I had a very nice lady at Great Clips take the whole thing down to 1/2". It should all be gone soon. 

    Just wanted to say that my daughters are 14 and 18. They have unfortunately been through this all before with their father.  But they have been great.  We had a makeover tonight with all the goods from the Look Good Feel Better bag!

    Welcome to all the new November warriors.  I will try and catch up with everyone in a few days.

    Have a good night, ladies. 

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  • deedee22
    deedee22 Member Posts: 11
    edited November 2009

    ccnani I've lived on the rez for about 10 years and absolutely love working with the elders. Everyone here in the community has been so kind and supportive and I've been given help of all kinds. My wbc rebounded from 0.9 thurs to 3800 today so I and my doctors are very pleased. I'm so used to being healthy, this is all new to me, so I tend to panic. I really can't complain about how the first two weeks of the chemo has gone. 

     boxersue i'm so sorry you are having a rough time and hope things get better soon. 

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  • reglau
    reglau Member Posts: 11
    edited November 2009

    Sorry I haven't posted in a while. I have been doing ok since my treatment.  I did have trouble with my first treatment in the nurses being able to find a vein, so I am having a port put in next week.  That is delaying my 2nd treatment by a week.  So next treatment scheduled for Dec,4, I'm hoping that doesn't mean a Christmas Eve treatment for the next one?????  Other then that things have been much better then I thought they would be. I did have my hair shaved off so that I could have a fringe wig made, and am so glad I did as my "stubble hair" is now fallign out like crazy.  Its hard to see, but I am getting more and more use to it every day.  I had dental problems this last weekend that has put me on antibiotics... and with a minor fever that had me freaked out and constantly checking my temp, its just one thing after another.  But thats minor compared to everything else.   I have a lot to read to catch up on how you have all been, hope your all doing as well as you can be.  And I will be back more often to catch up!!!! 

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  • littlebird75
    littlebird75 Member Posts: 120
    edited November 2009

    Suggestions? Help? Anything?

    I started chemo this past Friday the 20th of November. Taxotere and Cytoxen. Joint pain started Sunday early (like 12:30 a.m.) but today at work was bad. Hips to toes on both sides and walking at work like an old lady. However tonight (after dr. orders) I took 2 Percocet at 5p.m. and the pain came back so terrible in my ankles and feet by just after 9 p.m. I couldn't walk. Dear Husband gave me two more Percocet (max dose is 2 every 4 hours) and after about 40 minutes the thunderous roar of pain subsided enough that I could walk. I have spent the last hour soaking my lower legs in the hot water of the bathtub. I know we aren't "doctors" here but I hoped someone else may have suggestions, input or something that will maybe help me deal with this. 

    I'm grateful I don't have other symptoms right now as I don't think I could bear it, however I really need to go to work - desk job - and wanted to see if others have solutions that may enable me to actually make it there or at least have some experience to tell me how long I can possibly expect this severe of joint pain to last after the first treatment. 

    Thanks to each of you. Anyone else going through the same thing - you have my dearest empathy. Other that labor I can't recall ever having this much pain in my body...

    Thanks ladies.

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  • SharaD
    SharaD Member Posts: 100
    edited November 2009

    Ouch, littlebird, that doesn't sound like fun. One thing I've heard for aches is to alternate hot and cold treatment. In other words, when you hop out of the hot bathtub, hit it with ice....then when the ice stops working, hit it with a hotpad. Alternate.


    As far as the percocet, you've got to try and stay ahead of the pain. Just prior to the 4 hour mark, take your next dose...don't wait for the pain to set in.

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  • littlebird75
    littlebird75 Member Posts: 120
    edited November 2009

    Thank you SharaD. I feel a little lost with all this. Honestly I don't feel I'm getting very good information from my treatment "team". Everything helps!

    If your advice holds true I should be thinking about taking another dose soon. I guess I just wasn't prepared for so much pain so early after the first round. I'm an information hog and haven't been able to find much. Does anyone know "why" the joint pain comes on? 

     A co-worker who is a year out of treatment said something about receiving a shot prior to chemo to help with the joint pain - any experience from anyone in that regard? She said the joint pain comes because joints are where the red? blood cells are made....Anyone know if that is why? 

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  • SharaD
    SharaD Member Posts: 100
    edited November 2009

    For those of you with migraines, I have heard that magnesium can help...magnesium is also good for softening stools.

    My friend swears by extra-strength-tylenol with green tea (caffeine) and a vitamin B6 for her migraines.



    Best thing anyone ever gave me for a headache was called a "femcap" which is something like a midol...but I think it contains a diuretic.

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  • SharaD
    SharaD Member Posts: 100
    edited November 2009

    Yes, littlebird, I think the joint pain has something to do with the replenishment of red and white blood cells which are made in the bone marrow.
    Are you taking calcium and vitamin D? Apparently they are recommended to prevent osteoporosis and bone complications further down the road so ask your onc.
    As far as your 4 hour percocets....there is something called "breakthrough pain" which is more severe...it's the pain that breaks through your medication. This is why you need to "stay ahead" of the pain because it is easier than dealing with this breakthrough pain. Some people only want to take the pain meds as they feel the pain, but at times they can end up taking more medication in the long run because they are always chasing this breakthrough pain. Better to stay right on schedule with it because once the pain breaks through it is harder to quelch.
    (P.S. I'm not a pain brainiac...I'm just leafing through my books and guides! One that I like I got at the library, it's called 'Choices in Breast Cancer Treatment' by Kenneth Miller. I like it because it has chapters by several different oncologists).

    Anyway, this "breakthrough pain" sounds like just what you are describing.....at 9pm it was a little too late and the pain had already broken through the shield of the medication, so at that point you had 40 minutes of intense pain that your new dose couldn't quite handle because you took it just a little too late.
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  • JustmeAlicia
    JustmeAlicia Member Posts: 1,529
    edited November 2009

    Littlebird.  :(  So sorry you are in such pain.  Is there anyway you can take a day or two off of work.  I cannot imagine you being in pain like that at your desk.  My dr. told me sometimes 3 motrin works better then the painkillers.  Maybe give that a try.  I do remember my sister-in-law when she got the Taxol was crying in PAIN.  I would rub her legs with warm cream to give her some comfort.  I am sorry.  I dread when my Taxol starts as this A and C crap is enough.  I don't even know what the a is called Adymiacian?  And the C I know is Cytoxen.  YUCKY crap no matter what our poison is.  Healing hugs sister... 

    Deedee ~ glad your WBC jumped up so nicely!  I am sure that is a relief and you are feeling better.

    Reglau ~ nice to hear from you.  My stubble is almost gone too.  I resemble a chicken.  I am glad you are playing with you LGFB makeup with your girls.  Feel good !

    Mouse ~ ahhh NEW MOON.  I am too afraid to put myself into the movie theatre.  How was it?

    Portergirl ~ love that you kept the MOHAWK.  I am sorry I didn't do that ~ I felt like Rhianna.  :)

    I just realized this is a BIG "I" post .... sorry to be so selfish.  "I" am feeling very weepy today, I think it is the impending doom of Thanksgiving approaching and missing my dad who has been gone for 17 years and it seems like yesterday.  He nicknamed me "Turkey"... called me it my whole life. 

    Hugs girls.  Where is everyone?  I hope you girls that just had TX are hanging in there....

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  • Melinda41
    Melinda41 Member Posts: 672
    edited November 2009

    LittleBird: Did they give you Neulesta or Neupogen or something similar to boost your white blood cells. If so, I have read that causes major bone pain since the bone marrow is working overtime. I read on the boards that Claritan helps with the bone pain.

    So if your pain is from a white blood cell booster shot, read about Claritan, don't know why it helps but many say it does.

    JustMeAlicia: (((Alicia))) I hear you on the Dad thing. I lost my dad 22 years ago and he has been in my thoughts alot lately, too.

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  • Sherri_V
    Sherri_V Member Posts: 159
    edited November 2009

    I have decided to go through with my hair appointment today.  It isn't falling out yet (day 13 since first chemo) but I sat in a wig fitting room and listened to a lady in the next room telling the story of when huge amounts of hair fell out during a shower.  It sounded awful and I do not want that particular experience.  So, in a bit I am driving to town and meeting up with my parents, my sister and our kids and we are gonna have lunch out then head over to our hairdressers.  My daughter who was having issues has settled into the idea much better now, she's even offered to cut her own hair.

    I am going to start with leaving it short, like 3 inches, and then decide if I'll go ahead and do the 1/2" thing.  My husband says he thinks I should just get it over with but we'll see :)  I'm taking a wig and a hat with me just in case.

    Since I am on dense dosing, tomorrow is my 2nd treatment.  Hope I feel well enough to enjoy Thanksgiving and our anniversary night at a hotel on Friday evening :)

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  • mommy2two
    mommy2two Member Posts: 130
    edited November 2009

    Littlebird- My onc told me up front that Taxotere causes joint pain but if he told me why then I don't remember (go figure).  I call it bone pain but same difference I guess.  After my first tx, the pain was horrible and I laid in bed crying all day on Day 4.  My second tx was 11/20 and yesterday (Day 3) was very bad for me with the pain.  I did work for about 6 hours then went home, took 2 pain pills and went to bed.  Today is not so bad but I stayed home from work just in case.  I don't like taking pain pills at work so in order to stay on top of the pain, I just stayed home.  I hope you are able to find a way to manage your pain, I feel for you and know exactly what you are going through.  

    SLV - My hair started falling out on Day 12 while I was in a meeting at work!  I started out with leaving 2 inches when I originally shaved my head.  I felt it gave me and my kids a chance to get used to me without hair.  But when I wore my wig, the itching drove me insane so I lasted about two days before having my DH shave it as much as possible.   

    Hugs to all, hope everyone is doing well!

    Toyah

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  • BrendaSharon
    BrendaSharon Member Posts: 506
    edited November 2009

    Sherri,SLV

    I hope I have finally got you correct with TX's, my brain surely isn't what is used to be!!~~Ohh my!

    Happy Anniversary!!!!! I hope you get to enjoy your room away from it all!. Being days 1-4 I'm sure the room with a BIG comfy BED will be nice for you and hubby, so just to relax and get your much needed rest.

    KAYA, & SHEL,

    This time I too am feeling quite fatigued yet at the same time can't sleep because of the steriods. Then I tried the Ambien CR and then yes I slept for hours, but now I'm like a Zombie with NO brain what so ever. It's been really hard posting and i feel as if I'm making errors to often. I can't type correctly, I seem dyslexic with typing my words even~~~Weird~~~this too shall pass!!~~

    Mouse, Thanksso much! I too am so blessed  and relieved to know I don't have mets, I was so scared. You must let me know about the movie!!~~ I love Vampire movies and havn't been to one for forever. I didn't even get to see the first one, which I'm sure it was good too. I'll have to wait for it on DVD. I hope you had a nice time and was GERM free!!~~

    ALICIA,  Can't wait!!!!

    Day 7-10, I can't wait! ~~I know last TX this was when i began feeling normal as well. If all holds true I should be hungry as all get out for the Festive Foods. I hope so, I'm finally going to venture out of town to see my children and grandchildren.  There will be at least 2 dinners for me to attend on Thanksgiving. Last go round all I thought of was CAKES, this time I hope for PIES!! My fave I haven't had for forever is Rhubarb. Hope I get one!!!   mmmm'mmmmm good!!!!

    LittleBird,                                       Soooooooooooo Sorry!

    I believe the girls have given good advice to you!!~~ I know when I had my "Axillary Dissection" I was in severe pain and I was told NOT to let the pain ever start, like the other sister SharDsaid, "breakthrough pain", if I didn't let the pain start "break through" I was OK,. Once it already started it was hard to stop, no matter how much pain killers I took. And do try the Claritan as Melindasays, as it seems to be working for many of the girls with your symptoms.  Also, try the Motrin as Alicia said it too may alleviate you pain. (((((HEALING HUGS)))))) to you~~

    Toyah~~~mommy2two I hope today is much better for you also, I missed hearing from you, but I also realized you where probably not up to it. Hope you feel better real soon!~~(((gentle hugs)))

    regula,

    I need you to give me your TX what type you are on etc. so I can add it to the rooster>

    Thanks in advance!!!!! i already posted your next scheduled TX however. Hope you are well!!~~

    SharaD                       SharD                        SharD                         SharD

    SharaD, Your FIRST TX - Thanksgiving Day-  I hope you find some compassion with your family as you go thru your first TX. Do know that after today at least the "Sheer Terror" that I and all the "Warriors" experienced the days right before their first TX's will finally be over, and trust me, you will be relieved. So many concerns and worries will be laid to rest and you will feel an inner peace finally. As far as your family, the mother-in-law and the DH, I just don't know what to say!!!!   You have entirely too too much to go thru without having the support you so deserve.  This -C- Crap is hard enough to deal with.  The BRITE side to TX on THANKSGIVING, you won't have to be with HER the entire day!!!   Smile Our hearts will be with you!!~~~~ ((((MUCH LOVE))))

                  

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  • Omarsmom7
    Omarsmom7 Member Posts: 4
    edited November 2009

    2nd tx today.  6 more to go.

    Hair started falling out last night, it was not as bad as I thought it would be.  I'm sure the more that comes out the harder it will get.  

    Trying to make the best of a bad situation.

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  • Melinda41
    Melinda41 Member Posts: 672
    edited November 2009

    Day 8 and realized there was a dozen or so hairs on my pillow. While taking hat inventory, 10yo DD got very moody, I wish there was a way to make this easier on the kids.

    I see the Onc today, blood test and whatnot, I wonder if they know immediately what your WBCs are doing.

    Also woke up with a hole/sore in my gum.

    But, still pooping! Did buy some Senekot-S last night to take next round, see if that will keep things moving along.

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  • Shel
    Shel Member Posts: 41
    edited November 2009

    Hello to all.  A reasonably good day for me.  I am wearing a scarf today at work for the first time.  People sure treat you differently. 

    LittleBird, I am so sorry to hear about your pain.  I am not on the same drugs so I have no advice, but I hope you get help from some of these other great women.  This is a bad enough ordeal without being in terrible pain as well. 

    I talked to my PA about getting a port or not.  I don't want one and at least two nurses have had no trouble hitting a vein.  I just had the nurse from hell last time.  My PA said I am fine saying I want a specific nurse or the best poker on the floor.  I will take my tough sister with me because I can be a whimpy warrior.

    Have a good day everyone! 

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  • LVLinda
    LVLinda Member Posts: 93
    edited November 2009

    Good morning everyone!  I have been busy with company, so I haven't been able to post, or read everything.  But I did see someone questioning the joint pain from the Neulasta injection.  I can tell you, after my first Neulasta injection the bone pain came 7 days later, in my "flat" bones.  Hip bones, pelvis, chest, and yes, it was terrible and lasted off and on for about 2 days.  The second round, the pain came the next day and only lasted about 12 hours.  Now, this last round (3), it took 7 days again! LOL  But it wasn't as bad as the previous times.  The first two times I had to take pain meds, which really didn't take the pain away, just made me not care!  This last time, Tylenol did take most of the pain away.

    Well, just wanted to say good morning........I'll be out all day again, enjoying our company.  Take care everyone!

    Linda in LV

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  • SharaD
    SharaD Member Posts: 100
    edited November 2009

    Brenda Sharon....



    YIKES! You've got me confused with another sister! I do not have mother-in-law problems! My monster-in-law is in another country and I haven't heard a peep out of her in years! And I'm happy to keep it that way thank you very much.



    Also there is a minor problem with my heart medication so I will not be having chemo on the 26th, I will be having turkey. And stuffing and mashed potatoes, yippee! Unfortunately this moves me to a Dec 2 or 3 first chemo, putting my 2nd treatment right smack on Christmas eve. Aw well, ya lose some and ya win some, and then ya lose some more. At least from what I'm hearing, if I have my 2nd TX on Dec 24th, I'll still have an appetite that night and maybe Christmas morning and the side effects won't be delivered by Santa Claus until late Christmas evening. Cross my fingers and deck the damn halls. I'm gonna have egg nog on New Years Eve even if it tastes like a freakin' truck engine....just wait and see!



    Anyway...I'm not sure who it is, here, having mother in law troubles but I wish them the best. There is nothing you can't deal with if you can deal with this disease, so just take it one day at a time and try not to SCREAM.

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  • LVLinda
    LVLinda Member Posts: 93
    edited November 2009

    Milenen - I just read your post, and I had the same worries about thinking I was not as "sick" as I should be, maybe the chemo isn't working?  Well, for me, each round (3 so far) has been a little tougher, with a few more side effects here and there.  I even told my Dr. that I was worried it wasn't working!  But, she told me everyone reacts differently, and you cannot compare yourself to everyone else.  My 2nd was harder than the 1st, and my last was harder than the 2nd.  My main side effects are being soooooo tired, after the steroids fade away, the bad taste of everything, the bone pain.  Now I have what my doctor calls "chemo cough."  She said it's like an allergic reaction to the drugs.  I use Thera Flu cough and cold, and it helps.  But, I'm still dealing with company and playing tour guide.  My 4th round is next Monday, and we will see how it goes then.  Take care and hopefully you won't have any bad reactions....that would be great!

    Linda in LV

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  • BrendaSharon
    BrendaSharon Member Posts: 506
    edited November 2009

    SharD,

    Sorry I really am getting chemo brain.

    this is one fearless leader not doing such a great job anymore.

    I've looked back and can't even find who it was I was looking for, BUT

    I know I'm not totaly BLONDE as  I don't have hair anymore,

    BUT there was a sister with mother - law probs,

    Soooooo whoever you I my heart goes out ot you.

    PLEASE forgive me!!~~~~~

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  • doronet
    doronet Member Posts: 342
    edited November 2009

    JustMeAlicia:  my onc told me that Taxol has nowhere near the SE of the A/C part.  I'm actually almost looking forward to that part.  Taxol must be different from the the other Tax- - -'s that some women are getting and having such bad SE's.

    Melinda41: Re: WBC - my onc office draws blood immediately prior to my TX and tells me within a few mins. if it is normal.  I found out before my 2nd (and last) TX that they wouldn't have given me the  TX if my counts hadn't been normal.

    Re: Neupongen pain - Claritan didn't work for me, though Extra-Strength Tylenol did.  (Might be because the pain had already set in.)  My pain hit on day 10  (8th injection), and was in my hips and legs, but luckily the pain was manageable.  Am waiting to see if/when I get it this time, since I have had 5 injections this  round so far.  Am getting Neulasta next TX round to have the one-shot vs. 8.  Will try the Claritan before and 4 days after that injection.  My onc-nurse said their pharmacist hadn't heard of using it. 

    SharaD:  Just FYI - my onc said to lay off the extra vit. D while doing TX and only take the Calcium chews (Little Critters, are like gummy bears for calcium) because there was less other "stuff" in them. 

    Littlebird75:  I know it doesn't make the pain any better, but all of us here are hurting for you.  Hope it goes away real soon.

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  • CoolBreeze
    CoolBreeze Member Posts: 4,668
    edited November 2009

    A friend on mine also had that horrible leg pain - she said it was like knives in her legs. :(  I'm so sorry that you are experiencing that, but she said it only lasted a few days and then went away again.  That was her worst SE.  She said she took lots of hot baths.

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  • Melinda41
    Melinda41 Member Posts: 672
    edited November 2009

    Back from Onc, WBC were 3.8 (normal is 4.6-10.9), they said that is low for a normal person but good for a chemo person and that if I came in today with those numbers, they would go ahead and treat me with another round.

    So no new news, just hold what I've got and call them if anything gets worse with mouth sore or if I run a fever.

    Hope everyone is doing well today!

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  • kayh
    kayh Member Posts: 37
    edited November 2009

    BoxerSue -Don't even think about your brother he's not worth upsetting yourself over, I am sorry about your Mum though. Enough to break you heart.

    I have an 89 yr old mum in a nursing home and haven't told her yet.  She will be concerned for me, but I am an only child and I know she will be more concerned about herself. (I have to face facts and that is just how she is)

    Mum is doing so well at the moment I hate to give her a setback.  Anyway I'll be notifying the staff to give her extra support after I tell her.

    Feeling better today I have not taken nausea tablets at 2.30am & breakfast. I have needed them then & again before tea at night. The past two days spent mostly in bed.

    Hello to the new Girls!  Welcome Hope we can be of help and support!

    Hello to all the Old Girls too!- Hah! Hah!

    You all seem so much younger than me, with young and teen children. What a trauma for you all, my son is 43yrs and even he seems to look a bit "green" when he comes to see me.

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