Is it politically motivated?

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  • ADK
    ADK Member Posts: 2,259
    edited November 2009

    Abortion has nothing to do with breast cancer. 

    I do agree with Anne about the MRIs.  Personally, I have not had a mammo since 2000, I have only had MRIs for the last three years.  I think they are better detectors.  That would be the silver lining in this cloud.  But, they have to come down in cost.

  • rosebuddee
    rosebuddee Member Posts: 1
    edited November 2009

    I don't believe the initial  report was  politically motivated but do think it will have political ramifications due to the widespread media coverage.  It is an issue that insurance carriers would benefit from.  Could someone explain to me why the report also discouraged us from breast self-examination? 

  • ADK
    ADK Member Posts: 2,259
    edited November 2009

    I believe the reason why they are discourging BSE is because they cannot find sufficient evidence to support it's usage.  Basically, they are telling younger women that there is no detection method that can be supported statistically.  Regardless, no one wants to be one of the 3% who will die because of waiting until 50.

  • crazy4carrots
    crazy4carrots Member Posts: 5,324
    edited November 2009

    Using the old "If they can send a man to the moon, why can't they (fill in the blank)", maybe this report could be the impetus to actually devise a much more effective, much safer screening tool.

    I too wonder why BSE is being discouraged.  Can't find the explanation for that, yet....Undecided.

  • AnnNYC
    AnnNYC Member Posts: 4,484
    edited November 2009

    About BSE:

    "Two huge studies in China and Russia" led the U.S. Preventive Services Task Force to conclude that BSE is "of no value."  The new guidelines cite an analysis of those studies by two Dutch epidemiologists (Kosters and Glotzsche; see http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12804462) which was published in July 2008, and discussed on a thread here at BCO at that time:

    http://community.breastcancer.org/forum/73/topic/709476?page=1#post_994980

    I'm also quoting myself from that thread - hope that's okay! 

    There is a horrendous and common fallacy in a lot of medical literature and interpretation of study results (and unfortunately this is taken up by a lot of insurance companies): that whatever works best for the majority of the group studied is therefore "the best" -- and the other options are judged "not valid"!!!!!

    I mean, say 20% of BC is discovered by self-exam and 80% (or whatever) is not.  That wouldn't mean self-exam is useless!!!  It would mean 20 out of 100 women needed self-exam!!! 

    Just wanted to clarify that when I said "20%" above, I was just speaking hypothetically.  Actually, a paper from Seattle says 48% of breast cancers are FIRST detected by self-exam
    (see: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12209738)

    and a 2009 paper from Mass General/Harvard says 71% of cancers in women under 40 are first detected by self-exam!
    (see: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19800464)

    What I don't know is the percentage of those that can NEVER be seen on mammogram or ultrasound  but ONLY by manual exam (like mine) -- but even if it's only 1%, still, that 1 woman out of a hundred absolutely needed self exam!

    I really question the slant on this study, reported over and over in the news, that BSE "may do more harm than good."  In the total of 388,500 women in the Russian (St Petersburg) and Chinese (Shanghai) studies, the half that did BSE had "almost twice as many" benign biopsies (3,406) than the half that didn't (1,856)!  I don't agree that 1,550 additional benign biopsies out among approximately 190,000 women is "harmful"!!!!

    In the Russian women, there were 24% more breast cancers detected in the self-exam group -- how is that harmful?

    The paper says the Russian women were followed for 15 years and the Chinese women for 10, and that "there was no significant difference in mortality" between the BSE and non-BSE groups.

    There are two statements in it that I can't reconcile.

    In the Shanghai study, the breast-self-exam group was reported by the Chinese researchers to have nearly a 10% lower mortality rate (from all causes) than the non-self-exam group!  To me, that supports Marisa Weiss's contention that BSE is empowering of women's health in general (it makes sense to me that the group trained in BSE was thereby also "trained" to take better care of themselves in general).  Yet the two Dutch reviewers (Kosters and Gotzsche) who reviewed the Shanghai and St. Petersburg (Russia) studies (publishing the conclusion that BSE "does more harm than good" and inspiring all this media hubbub) said:

    "This significant decrease of 10% in total mortality is highly implausible and suggests a baseline imbalance in this study."

    Uh - okay - yeah, right...

    So why, 10 paragraphs later, do Kosters and Gotzsche say:

    "The Shanghai study is well designed and it is hard to imagine that future studies of this large size would achieve more impressive attendance and compliance rates."

    ??????

    Which is it -- "well designed"?  Or a study with a "baseline imbalance" which allows the Dutch reviewers to dismiss a 10% reduction in mortality as "highly implausible"????

  • LVLinda
    LVLinda Member Posts: 93
    edited November 2009

     Politically motivated?  I believe the insurance companies are getting worried about health care reform - so, if you think it's political, well, I think it's connected.  I think it's a ploy so people can say "I told you so" and bash health care reform, which has turned into a political fight.  Heaven help those who cannot afford preventative care. 

    Question - why not do BSE's?  If you tell people BSE's aren't effective, they won't do them.  If they don't do them, they won't find anything wrong.  If they don't find anything wrong, they won't go and get tested, so the insurance companines won't have to pay for anything.  That's what it looks like to me.  It's all in the bottom dollar, and IMHO, the insurance companies have a huge hand in this.  They don't want to pay for prevention, or worse.  We are slipping back into the dark ages aren't we.  And this comes from "doctors" who aren't even close to being specialists in the BC area.  What a crock. 

  • AnnNYC
    AnnNYC Member Posts: 4,484
    edited November 2009

    "...all Swedish counties and many counties in Finland now offer screening mammography as a public health service to women age 40 and older. Five studies from Sweden and one from Finland show that this service screening is associated with a reduction in breast cancer mortality often exceeding the reduction found by RCTs [randomized control trials]. In the counties that participated in the Swedish Two-County Trial, subsequent service screening of women ages 40-74 years reduced breast cancer deaths by 50% among the women offered screening and by 63% among those who agreed to be screened. Similar results were found in an expanded study involving seven Swedish counties."

    From Feig SA. Screening mammography: a successful public health initiative. Rev Panam Salud Publica vol.20 no.2-3 Washington Aug./Sept. 2006
    (see: http://www.scielosp.org/scielo.php?pid=S1020-49892006000800009&script=sci_arttext)

    The article quoted is an excellent rebuttal to the U.S. Preventive Services Task Force crock of $h*+...

    I really think we are dealing with some dangerous stupidity among the "quality" movement in academic medicine here in the U.S., that can best be fought by uniting with one voice against the new guidelines.

  • smithlme
    smithlme Member Posts: 1,322
    edited November 2009

    I went to Susan Love's web site and read some of the comments people have written. I can't believe Avon is partnered with Dr. Love and her million women campaign. I wonder where Avon stands on all of this?

    I am horrified by these new guidelines. I would be dead if I would have waited for my two year mammogram...

    Linda

  • flash
    flash Member Posts: 1,685
    edited November 2009

    Without reading all of the preceding posts:

    These are NEW appointees to the Task force, not the appointees from 2002.

  • AnnNYC
    AnnNYC Member Posts: 4,484
    edited November 2009

    The membership of the Task Force changes by one-fourth every year.

    New appointees take their seats in January.

    Three new appointees took their seats on January 10, 2009 (appointed before the Obama administration began) and were not among the authors of the guidelines (Susan Curry, Joy Melnikow, Wanda Nicholson).

    The authors of the 2009 guidelines (released yesterday) took their seats between January 2005 and January 2008.  (The authors of the 2002 guidelines were all different, and took their seats between January 1998 and January 2001.)

    Panel members appointed during the current administration will begin their appointments in January 2010.

    Note: these appointments, as far as I know, are made by the AHRQ/DHHS and not by any administration in office.
    http://www.ahrq.gov/clinic/uspstfab.htm
    http://edocket.access.gpo.gov/2008/E8-11191.htm

    The really outrageous thing, to me, is that "The U.S. Preventive Services Task Force (USPSTF) consists of experts in primary care, epidemiology, and prevention. Members come from the specialties of family medicine, pediatrics, internal medicine, obstetrics and gynecology, geriatrics, preventive medicine, public health, behavioral medicine, and nursing" -- and is charged with making recommendations about breast cancer screening.

    (from FAQ on the AHRQ website)

  • Colette37
    Colette37 Member Posts: 387
    edited November 2009

    It most definitely is politically motivated!  This "Task Force" is a GOVERNMENT (not yelling, just emphasizing) agency.  Enough evidence.

  • TenderIsOurMight
    TenderIsOurMight Member Posts: 4,493
    edited November 2009

     Hello Ladies,

    This is such a powerful topic. Thank you for your wizened comments. I too would have been missed in a scan pickup diagnosis under 50 if the proposed recommendations were implemented. 

     Everything is timed, and since AHRQ is a government entity I would say the US Prevention Task Force Committee's most recent mammogram recommendation was well considered prior to it's publication. Here is what the AHRQ says about itself and it's mission. AHRQ clearly states it's a best medical evidence research arm of the US Government. 

    http://www.ahrq.gov/about/whatis.htm

    http://www.ahrq.gov

    The publication of the US Prevention Task Force Recommendations limiting mammogram to 50 and above and then also, to every two years is shockingly clear in its intent to ration medicine by allowing that actually fairly large 3% number (in real people terms) of women and men be intentionally  overlooked,or forsaken, for cost savings reasons. Shocking! I pity the 3% who would be found with later stage cancer and go on to die from this dastard disease, and like you will fight this.

    Just my opinion, taken from what I've read, heard and seen during the Health Care debate, including during the President's Speech to Congress on Health Care Reform, these best evidence plans are what the government has in mind to keep costs down (also for Medicare and Medicaid patients but that's a different topic). However, for breast cancer screening I assumed cost savings would be implement by insisting physicians follow well thought out and comprehensive diagnostic and treatment breast cancer guidelines like NCCN (National Coalition of Cancer Networks) NOT the highly controversial US Prevention Task Force Recommendations which as one poster mentioned doesn't even have an oncologist or surgeon on the force.

     Nothing is without intent, and I ponder if this may be a way to squirrel the effort against health insurance reform right now, given the state of US affairs. Perhaps second thoughts have surfaced that it's too much of a fight, not enough in return, and therefore controversial decisions which manifest as health care rationing are being put forth to stymie a Congressional bill and Presidential signature. Already Big Pharma is raising name brand drugs, in an attempt to offset their $80 billion dollar pledge, and so may be insurers with premiums. Thus our Government may have concluded to pull the plug on health care reform, especially in light of continuing big financial demands such as the wars, unemployment etc.

     These are disconcerting times in America, yet to see nefarious health care actions and counter actions play out so openly is probably better so we all wake up. At issue is the future of American health care as a right, as affordable and as humanely applied in best evidence decisions.

    Withholding life saving mammograms and scanning studies which further ensue from mammograms' findings is clearly NOT in our countries best interests nor acceptable. We don't go one step forward and two or three steps backwards in American cancer medicine; never have, never will and I don't believe such will be tolerated.

    Best to get to our pens and start writing our Congress and President, as well as to open our wallets which we keep ever more close in life from fiscal necessity.

    One final thought: be wary of middle of the night final Health Care Bill insertions if a Bill does reach finality. The powers that be in Congress, with some higher power and deeper pocket urgings, have now resorted to potentially devastating and widely impacting bill insertions in the wee hours of the morning to get unpopular legislation written. Like a thief in the night..... So incredibly un-American and so very, very sad.

    This is my personal opinion obviously, yet one based on much reading and contemplating. Good luck to us all, to the future of American medicine, and to our children and future generations.

    Tender

  • cmb35
    cmb35 Member Posts: 1,106
    edited November 2009

    Thank you Tender, I was hoping we'd hear from you on this critically important issue.

  • activern
    activern Member Posts: 409
    edited February 2010
    So scary.  I am sitting here thinking of my recent "fights" with my surgeons regarding mastectomy v no mastectomy in Stage IV BC.  This conversation will take us to a new level - very sad and depressing.....
  • inspiewriter
    inspiewriter Member Posts: 876
    edited November 2009

    ADK mentioned that abortion has nothing to do with breast cancer. There is a theory out there that it does---that unnaturally stopping the pregnancy causes change to the breast that later cause cancer.

    Just a possibility.

  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Member Posts: 1,376
    edited November 2009

    okay ladies - I never had an abortion, used BC pills for a very short time (shorter than any of my friends - 5 years tops) and self exam (and doctors exam) did not find my tumor.  Mammogram (and ultrasound and MRI) did.  We need some kind of screening prior to age 50. 

    I do not have family history, etc. etc.   Like some of you have said, I am hoping this leads to more ultrasounds and MRI's- not just a sit back and wait until we are 50.

  • ADK
    ADK Member Posts: 2,259
    edited November 2009

    I said that abortion did not have anything to do with breast cancer in reaction to a post that stated because of the increase in abortion, breast cancers have increased.  I have had this argument with my church (and believe me, I do not want this to turn into an abortion debate).  All the studies being quoted by the church were over twenty years old.  When I provided them with a study done within the previous two years over 6,000 women that clearly showed no connection, the response I got was "those women must have lied about not having abortions."  It is a debate that cannot be won by either side.  I am offended by people who insist there is a connection.  Do you really think this website would hold that information back from us?  This website also clearly states that there is no connection.  No, I have not had an abortion (never been pregnant), never used birth control pills and I still developed breast cancer.  The greater issue are these irresponsible recommendations and we should stick to that debate.

  • susanb2
    susanb2 Member Posts: 80
    edited November 2009

    Welcome to government healthcare. This is exactly what we will see. Bureaucrats that haven't seen a patient in years making decisions about our healthcare. It doesn't matter who appoints these people. These decisions are made on what is best for the majority not what is best for the individual. If a small percentage benefit then the cost doesn't justify the benefit.These recommendations are made from a public health perspective not a patient care perspective. Look at the guidelines for countries with government controlled healthcare. They will recommend screening every 2 or 3 years. They will also stop screening at a certain age like 75.

    Get ready for cut off ages on cardiac bypass surgery, knee and hip replacements. If you think insurance companies are hard to deal with, wait until you have to deal with a government employee. To get a small taste of government health care go check out your county hospital emergency room or try to get your cancer treatments in their clinic system.

  • sue_blue
    sue_blue Member Posts: 416
    edited November 2009

    This whole thing just sickens me; is this just the tip of the iceberg of what we can expect? The government needs to not just throw women under the bus in their attempt to get their way on this issue.

    Thank you, Tender, for your insightful input.

  • kdeit
    kdeit Member Posts: 209
    edited November 2009

    Madalyn,

    Thank you for the link to the other recommendations given by this group.  I also have COPD and so I wanted to see what their screening recommendations were for it - they recommend NO spirometry screening for it, when according to the COPD Foundation and other COPD groups, the best way to detect COPD (emphysema and/or chronic bronchitis) is spirometry!!  Inexpensive spirometry machines in primary care physicians offices diagnose it quickly and before it gets more costly to treat.  My COPD wasn't diagnosed until I was referred to a pulmonary doctor who gave me a spirometry test.  So again, this group of doctors seem to have made a recommendation that makes no sense.

    With COPD, as with breast cancer, early detection saves lives.

    Edited to add:  Their recommendation for osteoporosis screening is:

    The U.S. Preventive Services Task Force (USPSTF) recommends that women aged 65 and older be screened routinely for osteoporosis. The USPSTF recommends that routine screening begin at age 60 for women at increased risk for osteoporotic fractures. The USPSTF makes no recommendation for or against routine osteoporosis screening in postmenopausal women who are younger than 60 or in women aged 60-64 who are not at increased risk for osteoporotic fractures.

    By the time I was in my early 50's I already had spinal compression fractures caused by osteoporosis.  Again, because of risk factors BEFORE age 50, I was getting dexa scans every year.

    Hugs,

    Karen 

  • otter
    otter Member Posts: 6,099
    edited November 2009

    Madalyn, I think you're right about the USPSTF being more "conservative" than other organizations. I've been trying to track down some of the history of all this, and it's really interesting (and complicated).  More about that when I've had a chance to go through all the papers....

    I do think the political reactions to this controversy are fascinating.  The "Right" says these new restrictions on screening constitute healthcare rationing, and they're a good example of what we would be seeing with government-run healthcare.  The "Left" says this whole thing was orchestrated and timed so that the negative public reaction would derail attempts at healthcare reform.  From what I've been reading, enthusiasm for individual parts of BC screening guidelines has shifted back and forth ever since the first organization came out with the first screening guidelines almost 35 years ago.

    Here is a good article from today's on-line Washington Post about the political implications of this latest controversy:  "Mammograms and politics: Task force stirs up a tempest. Research, recommendations for breast cancer screening have long been debated." (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/17/AR2009111704197.html)

    otter 

  • pip57
    pip57 Member Posts: 12,401
    edited November 2009

    I remember reading about this almost three years ago as I was being dx.  This is not a new theory.  There are many theories out there.  Regardless, the fact is, in our 'socialized' system (Cdn) we DO have mammos before 50.  And we DO have annual ones too.  The gov't health care proposal in America will not be profit driven.  The insurance companies are and always will be.  I definitely think that this was a well timed release and is getting the exact response that was hoped for.

  • pip57
    pip57 Member Posts: 12,401
    edited November 2009

    No.  That is absolutely wrong.  

    I think you are referring to the post talking about the screening program.  It is a program that you can enroll in once you are 50.  You will automatically receive an appointment each year for your mammo.  BUT, you do not have to be in this program to get a mammo.  You do not have to have a suspicious area to receive a mammo.  You do not have to be 50 to get a mammo.  It is simply a screening program to simplify the process for patients 50 and over.  

    In Canada, anyone, at anytime, at any age can get a mammo.  That is the true fact.  Why wouldn't my American sisters want that treatment option?

  • konakat
    konakat Member Posts: 6,085
    edited November 2009

    PIP's right -- you want a mammo, you get a mammo.  You don't have to fight to get one, like it seems you might have to in the US in the future (or even now???).  When I was 39 or 40 my PCP said it was time to get a baseline mammo -- so I got one.  There wasn't a problem to investigate.

  • lassie11
    lassie11 Member Posts: 1,500
    edited November 2009

    PIP is correct. There are two ways to get a mammogram in Ontario. One is through The Breast Screening program which has certain guidelines - much like the ones in the panel's recommendation. Women over 50 can refer themselves to that program. The second way, through your doctor (or a walk in clinic) is available to anyone else. No problem. No cost.

  • konakat
    konakat Member Posts: 6,085
    edited November 2009

    The craziest thing is to not teach BSEs -- if there won't be routine screening, it seems the time to promote BSEs!

  • pip57
    pip57 Member Posts: 12,401
    edited November 2009

    2tzus, I can understand why it is so hard for you to understand our system.  After what I have learned here and from my American sister, it sounds too good to be true.  But true it is.  We are able to have a mammo at any time.  Yes, a doctor has to refer you.  But that is done all the time.  It is usually brought up at your annual physical or you can request one at any time. No charge.  I have NEVER heard of anybody being denied one.  Not ever.  And if it did happen, you would find another doctor.

  • konakat
    konakat Member Posts: 6,085
    edited November 2009

    Gee, tzus -- as a Canadian living in Canada when I got my baseline screening I have to disagree.  What's your experience in Canada?

  • KanRunMo
    KanRunMo Member Posts: 8
    edited November 2009

    The stupidity of the task force on waiting on breast mammograms until age 50 is obscene.  The facts say that 15% of women in their 40s are diagnosed with breast cancer.  Are these women to wait till they are 50 to be treated.  This is the government's recommendation.  Is this what we want in a health care system.  Self-exams and self diagnosis are so important as are yearly mammograms. 

  • konakat
    konakat Member Posts: 6,085
    edited November 2009

    And you base this on.....  Sorry 2tzus, you're wrong.  I don't understand why you don't believe the Canadian women who tell you otherwise.  What's your problem?

    Edit:  I always required a piece of paper (doctor's order) to get a mammo or any test in the US.  I guess I had crappy insurance that I needed this from a doc before waltzing in to get one.

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