tamoxifen and Her2+ cancer

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orange1
orange1 Member Posts: 930

This article explains (in very technical terms) the reason CYP2D6 testing is important for women on tamoxifen.  Notice the mention of unmetabolized tamoxifen stimulating the growth of Her2+ cancer in mice.  If your tumor was Her2+ and you are considering taking tamoxifen, please get your CYP2D6 status checked.  I know I sound like a broken record on this subject, but I want to keep all my Her2+ sisters alive.

For an explanation of why Tamoxifen is appropriate for ER+ Her2+ good or "extensive metabolizers, see thread "Important for Her2+ on Tamoxifen".  The explanation came from Dr. Goetz, the author of the article below.

http://www.cancernetwork.com/display/article/10165/1376594

Botton line is if you have the geneotype that correlates with extensive tamoxifen metabolism (extensive metabolizer), tamoxifen should be highly effective for you.  If you have the genotype that correlates with non-extensive tamoxifen metabolism, such as intermediate or poor metabolier, your onc should consider giving you an AI instead of tamoxifen.

Comments

  • orange1
    orange1 Member Posts: 930
    edited August 2009

    Bump for Njanja

  • helena67
    helena67 Member Posts: 357
    edited August 2009

    I think it is very good that you keep pointing this out Orange1. Please do so frequently until there is more clarity on this.

    Because we patients will have to ask for the test - I bet that there are very few Oncs that bring this issue up spontaneously.

  • AlaskaAngel
    AlaskaAngel Member Posts: 1,836
    edited August 2009

    Long-term tamoxifen use increases the risk of an aggressive, difficult to treat type of second breast cancer

    Study finds a more than four-fold increased risk of ER negative second cancers

    http://www.fhcrc.org/about/ne/news/2009/08/25/tamoxifen.html   

  • orange1
    orange1 Member Posts: 930
    edited September 2009

    From the article Alaska Angel posted above.  Li is the author of the study:

    While the study confirmed a strong association between long-term tamoxifen therapy and an increased risk of ER-negative second cancer, it does not suggest that breast cancer survivors should stop taking hormone therapy to prevent a second cancer, Li said.

    "It is clear that estrogen-blocking drugs like tamoxifen have important clinical benefits and have led to major improvements in breast cancer survival rates."

    Please keep in mind that while there is good evidence that tamoxifen decreases the chance of recurrence for the majority of HR+ women, including Her2+ women, Her2+ women who are not extensive metabolizers of tamoxifen should almost certainly not take it.  Also drugs that interfere with the metabolism of tamoxifen should not be taken with tamox. 

  • AlaskaAngel
    AlaskaAngel Member Posts: 1,836
    edited September 2009

    Three problems mentioned thus far to consider in regard to tamoxifen:

    whether or not one happens to not be an extensive metabolizer of tamoxifen and is HER2 positive

    one's AIB1 level

    the possibility that taking tamoxifen for more than 4 years has potential for second cancers that are more aggressive

    -AlaskaAngel

  • orange1
    orange1 Member Posts: 930
    edited September 2009

    About AIB1.  It seems high AIB1 levels predict a high probability to responding to tamoxifen.

    AIB1 is a predictive factor for tamoxifen response in premenopausal women

    S. Alkner1, P.-O. Bendahl1, D. Grabau2, K. Lövgren1, O. Stål3, L. Rydén4, M. Fernö1,* and on behalf of the South Swedish and South-East Swedish Breast Cancer Groups

    1 Department of Oncology, Clinical Sciences, Lund University
    2 Department of Pathology, Clinical Sciences, Lund University
    3 Department of Oncology, Clinical and Experimental Medicine, Linköping University
    4 Department of Surgery, Clinical Sciences, Lund University, Sweden

    *Correspondence to: Prof. M. Fernö, Department of Oncology, Clinical Sciences, Barngatan 2B:1, Lund University Hospital, SE 221 85 Lund, Sweden. Tel: +46-46177565; Fax: +46-46147327; E-mail: Marten.Ferno@med.lu.se

    Background: Clinical trials implicate the estrogen receptor(ER) coactivator amplified in breast cancer 1 (AIB1) to be aprognostic and a treatment-predictive factor, although resultsare not unanimous. We have further investigated this using acontrolled randomised trial of tamoxifen versus control.

    Materials and methods: A total of 564 premenopausal women wereentered into a randomised study independent of ER status. Usinga tissue microarray, AIB1 and ER were analysed by immunohistochemistry.

    Results: AIB1 scores were obtained from 349 women. High AIB1correlated to factors of worse prognosis (human epidermal growthfactor receptor 2, Nottingham histological grade 3, and lymphnode metastases) and to ER negativity. In the control arm, highAIB1 was a negative prognostic factor for recurrence-free survival(RFS) (P = 0.02). However, ER-positive patients with high AIB1responded significantly to tamoxifen treatment (P = 0.002),increasing RFS to the same level as for systemically untreatedpatients with low AIB1. Although ER-positive patients with lowAIB1 had a better RFS from the beginning, this was not furtherimproved by tamoxifen (P = 0.8).

    Conclusions: In the control group, high AIB1 was a negativeprognostic factor. However, ER-positive patients with high AIB1responded significantly to tamoxifen. This implicates high AIB1to be an independent predictive factor of improved responseto tamoxifen and not, as has previously been discussed, a factorpredicting tamoxifen resistance.

    amplified in breast cancer 1, breast cancer, coactivator, estrogen receptor, prognosis, tamoxifen

    Received for publication February 14, 2009. Revision received April 21, 2009. Accepted for publication April 21, 2009.

  • orange1
    orange1 Member Posts: 930
    edited September 2009

    Re - potential problems with tamoxifen....

    Her2+ and HR+ and not being an extensive metabolizer - I agree, its a problem, potentially a big problem.  Thankfully the CYP2D6 test is now available so that Her2+ intermediate and poor metabolizers can take an AI instead.

    AIB1 level - High levels predict a response to tamoxifen.  A response to tamoxifen is a good thing.  This is why so many of us take it.  Low AIB1 level - no additional benefit from tamox.  Assuming this is correct, it will be a good thing when HR+ women can receive this test to avoid taking a medicine that will not help them. 

    Increased chance of triple negative breast cancer recurrence:  Of course this is a potentially very bad thing, especially if not caught early.  Fortunately, having already had BC, we are watched very carefully.  Also, women who had Her2+ cancer are most at risk for a recurrence of Her2+ cancer, not triple negative.  I have read that almost all recurrences (at least 80%) are of the same type as the original cancer. 

    Other side effects of tamoxifen - very small increase chance of uterine cancer, I believe on the order of about 1-2%, but virtually always caught early in developed countries thanks to regular pap smears. 

    What is amazing to me, is that despite the Her2+/poor metabolizer issue, the 1-2% risk of uterine cancer, and the increased risk of triple negative recurrence, that stats for tamoxifen STILL show a significant overall decreased risk of recurrence and death.  With the Her2+ poor metabolizer issue hopefully going away soon (that's why I keep posting on this), the statistics should show an even greater benefit for tamoxifen in HR+ BC since the women that do take it are more likely to be helped by it (or less likely to be harmed, depending on how you look at it.)

    Women who had Her2+ tumors are at significant risk of recurrence without treatment.  This includes women with < 1 cm tumors and women with low grade tumors.  In all the studies that demonstrated the effectiveness of Herceptin, HR+ women were given hormonal treatment (tamox or AI, most were given tamox).  In both herceptin studies were results are available separately for HR+ and HR-, HR+ did a little better than HR-, despite being treated with tamoxifen.  To me, this is ample evidence that tamox reduces overall risk for Her2+ HR+ breast cancer (or AI for Her2+ intermediate or poor metabolizers of tamox.)  Will it help everyone who takes it? No.  Will it harm a few?  Possibly, but the potential upside is certainly greater than the potential downside.

  • orange1
    orange1 Member Posts: 930
    edited September 2009

    Some evidence that our tamoxifen is not killing us.   

    Note that this study was done on tumors before herceptin was used as adjuvant therapy. 

    Does hormone receptor (HR) positivity affect the prognosis in breast cancers with human epidermal growth factor receptor 2 (HER2) overexpression?

     
    Sub-category:Prognostic Factors Category:Tumor Biology and Human Genetics Meeting:2009 ASCO Annual Meeting Abstract No:e22091 Citation:J Clin Oncol 27, 2009 (suppl; abstr e22091) Author(s):Y. Lee, J. Sohn, B. Park, H. Chung, C. Suh, S. Kim, J. Koo, J. Kim, H. Choi, Y. Kim; Yonsei University College of Medicine, Seoul, Republic of Korea; National Health Insurance Co. Ilsan Hospital, Goyang, Republic of Korea

    Abstract:

    Background: Biologically, there is an unclear issue about the role of HR positivity in HER2 positive breast cancer. These HER2(+)/ HR(+) pts were grouped into luminal B type apart from HER2(+)/ HR(-) pts in molecular profiling. However, from the clinical point of view, these pts have been categorized and been treated as either the only HER2(+) disease regardless of HR status or vice versa. Thus, we investigated the impact of HR status on clinical outcomes in HER2-overexpressed breast cancers. Methods: We retrospectively reviewed medical charts of HER2-positive breast cancer pts who underwent curative surgical resection from 1996 to 2001 in the Severance hospital, Korea. Demographic comparisons were performed by Chi-square tests. Tumor size, nodal stage, TNM stage, HR status, and adjuvant tamoxifen use were included in the Cox proportional hazards model. Results: Among the total 174 HER2-positive pts, HR (n=93) was positive in 53.5% (n = 93) and HR-positive tumors were more likely to be premenopausal (73% v 52%; P=0.01) and well- differentiated (grade 1or 2; 77% v 62%; P=0.04). There were no significant differences according to HR status in terms of tumor size, nodal stage, TNM stage, operation methods, and chemotherapy regimen. In these HER2-positive pts, the 5-year disease free survival (DFS) was longer in HR(+) pts than in HR(-) pts (DFS; 82.9% v 61.5%; P= 0.01). In a subset analysis, the 5-year DFS of HER2(+)/ER(+) pts without adjuvant tamoxifen (n=26) was not different from that of HER2(+)/ ER(-) pts (DFS; 57.7% v 61.5%; P= 0.32). However, the 5-year DFS of HER2(+)/ ER(+) pts with adjuvant tamoxifen was significantly prolonged compared with that of HER2(+)/ ER(-) pts (DFS; 91.5% v 61.5%; P< 0.001). In a multivariate analysis of DFS, tumor size and adjuvant tamoxifen use significantly affected DFS with an adjusted hazard ratio of 2.56 (95% CI, 1.2-4.9; P= 0.01) and 6.58 (95% CI, 2.8-20.3; P< 0.001), respectively. Conclusions: In an analysis of HER2-overexpressed breast cancer, the presence of HR itself did not affect the prognosis. However, most of the survival benefit seems to be driven from adjuvant tamoxifen therapy not the HR status itself.


    Dx 8/2007, IDC, 1cm, Stage I, Grade 3, 0/3 nodes, ER+/PR-, HER2+

  • NanaA
    NanaA Member Posts: 293
    edited September 2009

    Orange  - Thanks for info.  I made my onc do the test before giving me tamoxifin and came back as IM.  I will go with the femara instead.  We were hoping to go with tamoxifin to avoid joint pain as I already have some legs pain problems.  We will try the femara and see what happens. Annette

  • orange1
    orange1 Member Posts: 930
    edited October 2009
  • swimmersmom94
    swimmersmom94 Member Posts: 38
    edited January 2016

    I'm a little confused. I wasn't tested for HER2. I had DCIS in SITU stage 0,ER +, clear margins, no node involvement, after surgery. post menopausal and DMX so no tamoxifen. Should I have been tested?

  • BarredOwl
    BarredOwl Member Posts: 2,433
    edited January 2016

    Hi swimmersmom94:

    As of this date (Jan. 2016), the short answer to your question about whether you should have had HER2 testing assuming you had pure DCIS and no evidence of invasive disease is "No".

    Regarding HER2 testing practices in pure DCIS, in general, the National Comprehensive Cancer Network (NCCN) guidelines for Breast Cancer (Version 1.2016) do not recommend routine assessment of HER2 for pure DCIS. This appears to reflect the current level of evidence regarding value as a prognostic marker in pure DCIS (unclear, weak), and that HER2-targeted treatments are not used in the pure DCIS setting (emphasis added):

    "Although HER2 status is of prognostic significance in invasive cancer, its importance in DCIS has not been elucidated. To date, studies have either found unclear or weak evidence of HER2 status as a prognostic indicator in DCIS.(41-44) The NCCN Panel concluded that knowing the HER2 status of DCIS does not alter the management strategy and routinely should not be determined."

    Many patients with pure DCIS do not receive HER2 testing, and that is appropriate under NCCN treatment guidelines.

    The above is a reflection of practice as of Jan. 2016. It might or might not change in the future, since it is an on-going area of research, and we may learn more from new studies about the prognostic implications of differing ER, PR and HER2 statuses in pure DCIS.

    BarredOwl

    [Edited to add: This thread dates from 2009, and is out of date regarding the current state of CYP2D6 testing. Those interested in that topic should use the query "CYP2D6" in the search field to find recently active threads and more current information. I have not even read the additional posts above.]

  • swimmersmom94
    swimmersmom94 Member Posts: 38
    edited February 2016

    Thank you for replying to my question. And yes, I did not have invasive.

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