Accountability in a police state.

<sigh>

Okay, I am going to go way out on a limb here. I am probably risking my own future on these boards, but, here goes....

First, though, I want to make something absolutely clear:  I was not one of the BC.org members who blew the whistle on the posts in the "Not for the easily offended" thread. I swear, I did not do it.  Most of you know me well enough (I hope) to know that I would 'fess up if I had reported those posts.

Second, I have reported posts in the past, but only if they were obviously "spam". I've usually tried to track them down first, to be sure they weren't from a reasonably legitimate source or from a concerned BC patient. If it was obvious that they were from a commercial source or were advertising a product or a service, I turned 'em in. Sometimes I wrote a follow-up to say I had reported the post; but most times, I didn't, because the violation was obvious.

I realize the majority of BC.org members would probably never report a post, regardless of its content, just as the majority of people are not likely to report witnessing an incident of shoplifting or petty vandalism. Most people just want to mind their own business and not get involved. Some of us are busy-bodies.

Okay. So, about this current unpleasantness...  IMHO, we are dealing with two different things that appear to be the same problem, but are not.

One issue is the deletion of posts leading to the banning of BC.org members through the actions of "cabals" (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/cabal) who simply (apparently) do not like certain BC.org members.  Some of the conflict may have been political, but most appeared to be personal. Most of us (me, included) have railed against the "Report this post" button because it can be used to submit anonymous, unsubstantiated complaints against other members.

The other issue--this more recent one--is the deletion of posts (and resulting temporary banning) that might have been because of the content of the posts. We'll never know why the posts on the "Not for the easily offended" thread were reported, and consequently deleted; because, again, there is no requirement that the reporters identify themselves or justify their actions and the posts no longer exist.

But, IMHO--and this really is just my opinion:  there might be half a dozen of our supposed 42,000 registered members who noticed that the content of (at least some of) those posts did violate the BC.org "Rules of Conduct".

Here's the relevant statement in the "Rules of Conduct" that I think was being violated:

"5. You agree not to submit content that contains material that is inappropriate, unlawful, threatening, abusive, hateful, profane, defamatory, infringing, obscene, pornographic, or indecent."

Wow. Quite a long list. I think most of us wouldn't have any problem agreeing that some of those things, like "unlawful" and "defamatory" and "threatening" content, do not belong on a public, breast cancer support board. But, note the word "profane." I didn't know that one was in there until I checked earlier today.

So, did some of the posts on the "Not for the easily offended" thread--especially the opening post--contain profanity?  Of course they did.  Flat-out, unadulterated curse words of the strongest variety. The poster was very, very angry--in a rage, even; and she wanted to get it all out. So, she used words that many of us would never, ever use in a public setting. And those words--one, in particular--constituted profanity.

Now, I'll admit to being a prude. I cringe when I hear someone utter the "F-word". I hate watching movies where there is gratuitous cursing. Maybe it's because I was thrashed as a child when I said the "F-word" unknowingly. I know some of us--me, even--use euphemisms of curse words, where we change the spelling or insert a symbol instead of a vowel, and everyone knows exactly what we mean.

I also know how horribly frustrated I was, and how angry I got, when I was dx'd with cancer 15 months ago. I felt cheated, and I briefly considered the pleasure of committing bodily harm agains the person who had mis-diagnosed my cancer at two successive annual visits. So, I understand the feelings that were being expressed in that original post.

But, we've agreed to abide by the "Rules of Conduct" on these boards, and our posts are subject to modification and/or deletion, as the Moderators see fit.  The "Community Rules" do say this, in the very first paragraph:  "The Discussion Boards and Chat Rooms are not edited, censored, or otherwise controlled by Breastcancer.org."

Hmmm... How is that consistent with what we know is happening here?  Midway down the third paragraph, the Rules say this:  "While Breastcancer.org has no obligation to monitor the Discussion Boards or Chat Rooms, the web site reserves the right to monitor content on the Discussion Boards and Chat Rooms and to remove content that, in its sole discretion, it determines to be harmful, offensive, unlawful or otherwise in violation of these Terms of Use and Rules of Conduct."

So, maybe that means the organization "Breastcancer.org" does not monitor or censor our posts, but "the website" does. Could that explain the auto-deleting of posts and auto-banning of members, and their reinstatement upon review by the Moderators?

I realize none of my babbling addresses the real questions we have:

1) How can Breastcancer.org (or "the website") improve the self-censorship capability of the discussion boards, so we can continue to flag "spam" for deletion without allowing a means by which members and their legitimate posts can be assassinated anonymously?

2) And, should posts be subject to deletion if they "offend" a few members--for instance, if they contain vulgar or profane language, which, according to the "Rules of Conduct", is indeed a violation?  Who determines the definition of "profane", for the purposes of a breast cancer support board?

I am not surprised in the least that the members who reported the posts on the "Not for the easily offended" thread have not come forward. Given the intensity of emotions right now, it's just not politically correct to object to someone using the "F-word" on these boards. Those people would be tarred and feathered for their "insensitivity".

Okay, fire away.

otter 

Well at least you have the guts to say where you stand on the issue outright, otter. 

I know there are people in this world who are very rules-oriented and think it's their duty to report any and all infractions.  I can't relate to those types - I am by nature rebellious. 

I thought it was nice that so many women felt compassionate first and foremost - propriety be damned.  This woman is suffering horribly right now and she needs help.

Well who are they, barbe?  I really want to know.

Otter - I agree with your comments.

The only thing I really REALLY disagree with is that the "community" can remove posts and effectively ban people.  This just doesn't seem right.  If we were all mature, responsible people without any other agenda (in a perfect world) it would work, but we aren't and it doesn't...

To be fair, I don't know what the answer is.

JMHO

I thought the Report a Post meant it went to a Moderator's inbox for evaluation. I had no idea a small number of people clicking the button would cause someone to be deleted!!  I'm shocked that a few people that don't have big girl panties could do this (Barbe -- I loooove your comments!)!!  If someone doesn't like what they're reading, post a rebuttal or hit the back button!  I've only hit the report button once and it was for spam. 

To knowingly have someone's post deleted, when she's asking for help and tossed in a few f-words, shame on those who reported her!!  Just use the ignore feature.  We're all adults here!  I don't want someone else to dictate what I can and cannot read!  I've got lots of big girl panties!

I know, konakat -- I'm fuming too.  And about the fact that baywatcher ended up with the software "banning" her because she had 4 comments deleted on that thread -- and that another newly diagnosed woman, Don23, had a comment deleted, and others' comments were deleted too...

I PM'd the moderators about it that night, calling it a meltdown and saying it was like "Lord of the Flies" and real moderation was needed.   (I might get in trouble for even talking about this, jeez )...  Anyway, I have not had any word from them about whether anything will be done about the DELETERS...

Katalin, the button WAS invented to get rid of spammers.  Five reports (maybe 6) and the post disappears ("removed by the community").  The mods are SUPPOSED to review removals, but in actual practice I don't think they do unless they receive PMs saying "hey -- so-and so's comment did NOT deserve to be deleted!"  Whenever I send them a PM like that (which I did about Chernieski and others on her "Not for the easily offended" thread) I also include a link.

The button has worked well to get rid of spammers.  Although, I have to say, I think the way we were overrun with spammers in the post was ALSO a symptom of hands-off moderation...

I guess I'm not supposed to say that.  But I think Tami and Melissa are overwhelmed, and I think the BCO leadership (because it shouldn't just be dumped on Tami and Melissa) might consider that a lot of traffic to the site comes through the Discussion Board and Chat Rooms (that's my guess, anyway) -- and it's not just detrimental to us posters, I think it's detrimental to the image of the organization if the public has the impression that the Moderators are responsible for mean-spirited deletions that are actually only inflicted by 5 usernames -- who could be 5 newly registered spammers, for all we know.

[That last point is why I suggested that, if we post names of people reporting comments, the ability to report comments and perhaps the ability to see those names should be denied until a new member graduates out of the "spam-fighter probation period" (5-post-a-day limit): for instance, we had some vile juvenile types flooding the board with offensive language -- REALLY offensive, and I'm not "easily offended"! -- in a kind of "denial-of-service attack" -- and it would be bad to install a capacity for those kinds of people to freeze out Beesie, for example, if they see that she is vigilant in reporting spammers.  I could envision that being an "unintended consequence" of this attempted fix, just as this nasty "policing" kind of deletion is an unintended consequence of the ability to delete spam.]

Ann, I never thought about a spammer using the "Report this Post" button to delete posts from those of us who report spam but you're right - that could happen.  So I agree that there should be a probation period before the button can be used, just to ensure that it's only legitimate posters who are reporting spam posts.

Katalin, back in the days before the Report This Post button, we used to send PMs to the moderators whenever spam would turn up.  Sometimes the spam would be removed within a few hours but on weekends, it would be 2-3 days. The spammers figured that out and would make a special effort to come here on weekends. Considering how offensive some of the spam was (and is), having their posts hang around for a couple of days obviously was not acceptable.  So I believe that the Report This Post button is necessary.  The problem is that it's being abused.  As per my earlier post, I think that there are ways to deal with and stop the abuse.  This has been going on for some time now and this issue has been raised over and over again.  I don't know why something has not yet been done.  Perhaps the moderators are working on something but if so, it would be reassuring to know this.  This is all particularly concerning since I believe (although I could be wrong) that it's the same culprits all the time who are abusing the Report This Post button.  If that's the case, then you would think that this could be addressed.

Is this the topic that was looking for "big girl panties".....I FOUND SOME!!! Now if the owner of the panties please step forward.........

Jader -- I don't think any of us need to be gratuitously hitting the "report" button on another woman with BC simply because "a rule was violated."

IMO, the only reasons to hit the report button are:

1) spam

2) truly hateful language (threats of violence, personal slurs, ethnic slurs, malevolent speech)

As Barbe has already noted she does, and many of us also do, if we report a comment we can always post and say "I reported your comment because..."

Nothing is stopping you or anyone else from publicly stating a reason for reporting a post.

If a post doesn't rise to the level of spam or malevolent speech, we can always PM the moderators.

I trust no one will consider this post of mine "hateful."  Forceful, maybe.  A difference of opinion, yes.  But those should be allowed.

P.S. A third category, I guess, that would warrant "reporting": unauthorized posting of another's personal information

Hi, girls.  I just got back online after being off for a day or so and cannot find the fashion thread! so I started looking for it and found that lexislove had posted something then deleted it for some reason.  I'm wondering if that caused the whole thread to disappear???  Anybody know what is going on?  I have not even read through this whole brouhaha so really don't know what's up.

EDITED to say that someone found the topic for me.  I guess I am losing it!!!

What might be an idea is that for posts that obviously not spam or hate mail (i,e threats, racial slurs, etc.) be put in a thread where the "offender" and the message be posted.  We have a look at it, it it really isn't offensive to those of us who wear big girl panties we can reply to the moderators to un-ban the person.  Sort of sponsor the the person.

I think there should be a policy that a new person especially not be banned immediately -- it the stress of the situation, anything can come out if one's mouth (typing fingers). 

The obvious value to the thousands of women here surely should be eligible for some sort of small grant from the gov't or money'ed organization to hire some people to moderate the reported posts.  It would be a perfect job for a student interested in social work. medicine, nursing, whatever.  Heck, I'd do it for a few bucks an hour just to make sure this does not happen again. Maybe even get some volunteers here to commit to a few hours a week to do it, again, I'd volunteer too. 

I'd like to know just how many posts and people are banned in a week or month.  How could we get that data?  it would be interesting to know.

hehe.....yeah Spar....the panties were supposed to be a joke

Shirley,

Welcome back!!