Cost of Cancer

*YAWN*

I'm glad you have never felt better in your life. and...I'm even more ecstatic that you and your "lover" enjoy your breasts sooooooo much.

Just to clarify with you, I have one natural breast, the other is getting ready for an implant. BUT....now...I'm strongly thinking of having the healthy breast removed just to piss you off.

BTW...I'm in Canada, the country where the government pays for our healthcare. And yes...that means I pay for it! But that is ok..because frankly if I were to get some other serious illness, I don't want to have to sell my home,business,car, borrow money from friends/family and cash in my savings and daughters college fund to get well.....I have never had to wait for treatment or been denied anything. Sure, there are horror stories about any countries health care, but overall I think we are doing pretty good...

I guess for early stage cancers you can shrug off detection and tx as being useless.  As a stage III girl, I owe my life to both.  Perspective is everything!

I'm greatful for treatment. Without tx, with stage 3 her2 positive cancer, KI67 @ 70%, I would be dead by now.  I'm alive and doing fairly well this spring. I think I can say that treatment and especially herceptin has extended my life.

Lexilove -- that was great -- cut of your other breast to piss her off! 

Gee, if I wasn't getting my chemo and at the rate my mets was spreading I probably wouldn't have much longer.  Thanks to my chemo the cancer is shrinking/disappearing. 

It's great to go on a healthy diet, a lot of damage is done from a lifetime of bad eating.  I do not doubt at all that a healthy diet helps prevent some cancers.  Or helps your immune system fight.  I don't think anyone would disagree that a healthy diet is a good thing.  Perhaps Dr Bugwig doesn't have any studies because he doesn't have any proof that his theories work.  Does he keep track of people who follow his advice and get sicker or die?  Does he publish that, how many Stage 4 people died under his care, or only those who get better?

BTW -- you don't have to pay 50% taxes to have the great system in Canada.  Health care is a right in Canada, money (or lack of it) does not prescribe your treatment.

And Leia, I'm happy your biopsy was benign.  I wonder if you'd be singing another tune if it wasn't.

And Leia, you're a very cruel woman.  I'm thrilled you have your breasts, but your statement "...At least, I still have my breasts. And I enjoy them, and so does my lover. But I guess, you don't" is a bit much.  I certainly hope you never have to go through what some of the women have here.  I do pity you, not myself, not the women here.  I pity you.

FYI:  An organization that has been formed to fight healthcare reform in the U.S. has produced tv ads featuring the former President of the Canadian Medical Assoc.  The ads are running on Fox News and CNN.  Dr. Day is an orthopaedic surgeon and operates a private clinic in BC -- and is being investigated by the BC legislature for overbilling.  He is a major proponent of public/private healthcare and is, obviously, biased.  Guess he feels he just doesn't make enough money in the public system.....

As has been said before on this thread, listen to those of us who are patients!

Beautifully put, Karen.  Thank-you.  As a Canadian, let me let you all in on something. My income tax is around 35%.  On top:  sales tax & goods & services taxes on things other than food, are around 14%. I don't make a lot of money.  Maybe 40K in a good year, working in theatre, lately because I missed time due to this lovely thing we all share...I don't begrudge a frickin' penny I spend on taxes, because I know that I've had the best possible care, never worried ONCE about who would be treating me, I always had the best of the best, with a great GP whose first reaction on hearing my diagnosis was to give me a big warm hug...after that:  any test, any specialist, no holds barred, fast fast treatment.  My mother, my aunt, all had the same type of treatment.  All of us are working-class.  It never even occurred to us to think even ONCE about cost of treatment or whether our  insurance would cover us.  Now where we fall down is with unemployment insurance, which only covered me for 16 weeks.  Not enough. Should have been one year, as it was in the seventies. But my work voluntarily stepped up, even though I was on contract, and they were under zero legal obligation, to cover me for an additional 16 weeks.  With the help and love of family, I could take time to recuperate.  

And I'm deeply sorry, but I read some of Dr. Budwig's protocol, and some of it is not entirely scientifically sound, as far as I'm concerned. On top of it, even she says that her protocol does not work for everyone.  And by the way!  No yoga!  Not too much exercise!  Good lord.  Bless everyone who takes that path, and bring on the big guns...and start firing at me for my opinion!  I'm careful about my diet:  but quark, which she recommends, is not exactly the same thing as cottage cheese, and the quality of dairy foods in Germany is entirely different from the normal stuff you pick up in the grocery in the US, which is different from the protocols for feeding and medicating cattle in Canada and other parts of the world.  So if you're medicating with dairy, be sure it's organic. 

I think this whole thread is starting to get a bit strange with all these discussions about 'lovers' and 'cut-off breasts'. Is this necessary? I basically agree with the concept that health care should not be for profit. And that is how it is in the US. People that make money off other people's misery. I do think health care providers, including doctors, should have a good income. But all these insurance companies make billions. In any case, I am done reading this thing. Maybe we should just agree that everyone should do their own thing.

The thread has gotten a bit surreal.  So, on the subject of cost and controversy regarding it in the US.  Did anyone catch this today?

http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/05/12/us.genes.lawsuit/index.html?iref=newssearch

Interesting controversy regarding patents on genes and the ACLU suing regarding it.  Anyone who has had BRCA testing has had it done by Myriad one of those being sued.  What they don't get into here is the additional controversy many have raised regarding researchers or Universities who make discoveries using NIH (taxpayer) funds and then apply for patents.  

It does get messy when health care is a "business". 

The US would have no problem supporting socialized healthcare -- as kaitlin said, it's based on a per capita formula, a population, whatever it's size, will support itself. Instead of paying for health insurance out of your paycheck, you have a bit more taxes.  Big deal.  It sure gives a peace of mind knowing that you will always get the tests and treatment that you need.  Isn't that worth a bit more out of your pocket every month?  I think so.

And getting tests is good medicine -- better to catch something and treat it earlier than later.  Both healthwise, and cost-wise too.  Even better to find everything benign.

 Katalin wrote:

"Helena67, no kidding, the talk of cutting off breasts and all that is unsavoury." 

Do you read, this board? On the other threads. Where women are getting double mastectomies, for 2MM DCIS. 

Is that,  "unsavoury?"

For my part, I had IDC. 2cm. This thread. And I chose a lumpectomy, with clear margins and no other treatment.  

But again, the point of this thread, is the "Cost of Cancer."

And for my part, having lived it, I'll just repeat, IF this universal health care, happens, no more double mastectomies, for 2MM DCIS.

There is literally, not enough doctors and machines. 

Leia wrote:

Which is why I am now embracing Dr. Buddwig's protocol. Because I am tired of all of these useless medical "treatments."

And  Telid replied:

"That's a good, logical reason for embracing an unproven protocol .. sarcasm intended. I really tried to the see the logic of you conclusions, but I just failed."

So, Telid, where is the success in the "Race for the Cure." How many $Billions have been spent, on a cancer cure, and there's none. No "Cancer Cure."

If there were a "cure for cancer," what would happen to all of the "treatments."  

Budwig received no funds, for her "cure." Because there was no $$$$ in it.

Eating right? Flaxseed oil and cottage cheese? Vegetables?

I keep repeating, this, cancer cure, aside (and that's a BIG one) I just feel better. And not a tiny bit, but Quantum amounts. To the point, where I can NOT go back. Even though I love, junk food.

Telid, I guess you want a "proven" protocol.  Well, these corporate assholes, you all hate, and  I do too, just want to cut your breasts off, and irradiate you and make HUGE profits.  And then, scare you even more, with making you demand Chemo. 

Well, those are the current "standards of care." These are your "proven protocols."

And they make HUGE profits, off of that. These Herceptin treatments are $50,000/year.  

And apparently, you're all willing to go along with it.

Well. I am not. Willing to go along, with it.  

I chose the Budwig Protocol. 

Because I just want to enjoy whatever life I have left. With NO Doctors, involved.  

But just a statement of fact. with Obama Universal Health Care, NO ONE is getting $50,000/year Herceptin treatments.

Can you people just not see that this entire scenario is unsustainable?

WHERE is the $$$ coming from? There is only so much $$$ we can borrow, from China! Until the entire house of cards, comes crashing down.  

I don't know where this no herceptin treatments on Universal Healthcare is coming from. It's simply not true!!!  In Canada you get the same standards of care as you do in the US -- you do get Herceptin, all the other treatments.  In Canada the pharmas and hospitals are not padding the costs to make a profit. That's the difference between Canada and the US.

It costs less in Canada, the gov't has negotiated much lower prices with the pharmas for the drugs.  The hospitals aren't private companies out to make the owners/stakeholders rich.  There's aren't insurance companies making millions of dollars off your treatments.  That's how it works.  Universal Healthcare works because there aren't all the companies making a profit off of your illness.  It is non-profit, sustainable care.

There is literally, not enough doctors and machines. 

How many women have double mastectomies for minimal DCIS?  And what happens to all of the doctors and machines we already have.

So, Telid, where is the success in the "Race for the Cure." How many $Billions have been spent, on a cancer cure, and there's none. No "Cancer Cure."

But there is.  People are cured of cancer all the time so long as it is gotten to early enough.  If not, no protocol based on healthy eating is going to cure anybody.

If there were a "cure for cancer," what would happen to all of the "treatments."  

I guess doctors and pharma would have to concentrate on other things, like heart disease and auto-imune diseases.  Maybe even anti-aging drugs.

Budwig received no funds, for her "cure." Because there was no $$$$ in it.

There were no dollars in it only because she didn't have a cure.

Eating right? Flaxseed oil and cottage cheese? Vegetables?

Sounds good for regularity.  Probably very worthwhile.  And vegetables may help prevent cancers. . sometimes.

I keep repeating, this, cancer cure, aside (and that's a BIG one) I just feel better. And not a tiny bit, but Quantum amounts. To the point, where I can NOT go back. Even though I love, junk food.

Much healthier to not eat junk food. 

Telid, I guess you want a "proven" protocol.  Well, these corporate assholes, you all hate, and  I do too, just want to cut your breasts off, and irradiate you and make HUGE profits.  And then, scare you even more, with making you demand Chemo. 

Like the rest of society I suppose.  Still, I would hope that the industry really wants to cure cancer if it can.  Imagine the money to be made by any drug company who discovers a cure to any particular cancer . . especially breast cancer.   

And apparently, you're all willing to go along with it.

Speaking only for myself of course, I want to live to see my children grow up . . if at all possible.  Maybe I am unusual. 

I chose the Budwig Protocol. 

I'm all for healthy eating so long as a scammer isn't asking to profit so I can eat healthily 

Because I just want to enjoy whatever life I have left. With NO Doctors, involved.  

Best way to do that is to stay healthy.   Sometimes easier said than done of course.

But just a statement of fact. with Obama Universal Health Care, NO ONE is getting $50,000/year Herceptin treatments.

I agree.  The price of medications will have to probably be regulated to some extent . . without damaging the incentive of companies to continue researching newer medications. 

Can you people just not see that this entire scenario is unsustainable?

You mean like a Ponzi scheme?

WHERE is the $$$ coming from? There is only so much $$$ we can borrow, from China! Until the entire house of cards, comes crashing down.  

We already may be past the point of no return.  But it has lots to do with bailouts, wall-street and wars.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but could there be a few reasons for all the tests and over-medication, such as:

1. the docs' fear of litigation if they don't do EVERYTHING possible to uncover a problem. 

2. tv and magazine advertising by the pharma and medical supply companies, so that patients are more inclined to demand expensive medications, even if they're not needed/recommended.

3.  Profit motive, of course, for the for-profit medical establishments.

Konacat is absolutely right; universal health care, if properly managed, WILL NOT result in rationed care.  The U.S. has the perfect opportunity to examine the best and the worst parts of universal health care in every other first world country, and the only thing preventing it from happening (IMO) will be the intense lobbying of the pharmas and insurance companies, as well as concentrated advertising by organizations who are against it, and the caving in of your senators and reps who put their own needs (getting re-elected maybe?) ahead of their fellow Americans.

My dh always adds, at the end of each commercial listing side effects "....and death".  (As you know, we get several U.S. networks north of the border).

The ads are even funnier here!  About the only Rx drug commercials we see are for Viagra and Cialis.  Laws prevent mentioning in the ad what they're used for, so they end up being "nudge nudge, wink wink" ads!

I'm just curious what is the mechanism that makes Flaxseed oil/cottage so amazingly effective? Not to be inflammatory, I would like to know.  Where is the evidence-based science that supports it?

Are you implying that a women who has chemo (remember I did not) cannot take a walk and enjoy flowers?  I have a friend who RAN a marathon during her chemo treatment, I think she enjoyed herself, she has run many since.  Chemo works for people who need it, and it works very well for women who are ER/PR-, there is some evidence that it may not be as effective for SOME ER/PR+ women, that is where Oncotype DX and TailorX come in. Also, some people believe strongly enough in chemo that in itself may lead to a positive outcome. Yes, some people who may not benefit from chemo may ask for it, yes it may be because they are scared--haven't we all be scared by this experience?  It is her choice, and you have no business to do anything other than nicely offer up what you are doing, and support her in her decision. We also have the ability to get up and walk out of any doctors office we want.  My second opinion said I should have done chemo, he admitted to being chemo-biased, not someone I wanted to work with, so  I left, and I keep working with someone who I don't always agree with, but he listens and we make decisions together.

About $$$ when I looked up the "Budwig Protocol" all the websites I found required the use of a credit card to get more information.  Dr. Budwig may not be making money, but someone is.

Also, just so you get full benefit, most registered (trained) and licensed (trained) dietitians (RD and LD) say use Flaxseed and grind it yourself everyday to get the greatest benefit, oil (of any kind) even when refrigerated, loses it potency.

You have turned so many people off of this thread- which had great potential to intellectually explore the cost of cancer. I wonder if you realize how angry, bitter, and aggressively threatening you sound?  Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but cussing, putting other people down, throwing your sex life into peoples faces,putting down other people's treatment choices, and attacking the president are all ineffective means of communication.  I'm glad you feel so well.  Nobody here would have responded to you the way they have if you hadn't come out punching.  I read on multiple threads women who have different opinions, they are all expressed with kindness, patience, and compassion--you have displayed none of this towards anyone on this thread.  You are shrill and your arguments are distasteful--and they lack evidence--no matter how effective the Budwig protocol may be, nobody is listening because they can't get past your delivery.

Obama a highly educated, insightful man, who taught constitutional law doesn't know what he's doing, but some woman with a PhD. in physics  knows enough about the human body and nutritional science to prevent and cure cancer? Seems a specious argument.

By the way 1/2 of the scientists I work with are physicists so I know them well--I work with more than 40 scientists across 5 universities--no, we are not in medicine--we study ecosystem health, which does impact human health, but that isn't what we study.  You may not like science, or the scientific method, but that method and peer-reviewed publications are what ensures that decision makers, industry, and the general public, have the best available science to work with.  They may not use it, but that is a different discussion.  The best science will change as it should, as more research is conducted.  Is it perfect? Not always, I always say follow the money, see where funding came from.  The National Science Foundation and the National Institute for Health are great funding sources, they are non-biased.  If, just an example, the cotton candy industry  funds studies that say their product is nutritionally sound,...I might research the methods used in that study, look closely at the statistics, and try and find similar studies funded by other sources, to see if the outcomes were similar. Funding sources, the scientific community, and scientists themselves need to be unbiased to ensure the most reliable results.

I'm sorry if this has been a harsh email.  I'm done with this thread, as it has become a surreal nightmare, and not a safe and welcoming place where people can discuss the real and important issue of the cost of cancer.

Best,

Karen