Accountability in a police state.

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pip57
pip57 Member Posts: 12,401

There is an issue that has been brewing here for some time.  Let's bring it out in the open.  

A handful of members have appointed themselves as the 'overseers' of the BCO discussion board.  If, in their most humble opinion, they do not like a post they keep pushing the 'report' button so that it will be 'deleted by the community'.  However, there is no accountability in this system.  So I would like to propose some ideas and ask others to voice their opinions as well.

1.  If  you report a topic, post or poster, your name(s) should be posted as one of those responsible.

2.  If you hit the report button, lets say 5 times, all of your own posts should be deleted.  This should make you think twice before subjecting everyone else to your self proclaimed rules of conduct.  Furthermore, if you have a history of hitting the report button, you should be asked to leave the site since it is clear that it is not a place where you belong.

3.  If you report a subject, the moderators should immediately reissue the deleted post if the records show that you continue to visit the offending topic that originally upset you so much that you deemed it unsuitable for ALL of us.  

Please, share your comments on both sides of this issue.  Or just delete it if it hits too close to home for your liking.

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Comments

  • AnnNYC
    AnnNYC Member Posts: 4,484
    edited May 2009

    Very well said, PIP.  Some attention to this issue is long overdue.

    I've suggested making the names of the "reporters" public in the past -- but I can envision a scenario where spammers then counter by deleting the comments of those who have reported them.  So maybe during the time new posters are limited to 5 posts a day, they should also be unable to report posts and to view who has reported them?  That could help to prevent retaliation by spammers. 

    I especially agree with your suggestion #3 (#2 I agree, if you're not talking about reporting spammers!  If you include spam report, Beesie and I would be banned! LOL!)

  • Beesie
    Beesie Member Posts: 12,240
    edited May 2009

    I'll repost here my suggestion for how this should be addressed.  I just wrote this in cherneski's thread, where the current abuse has most recently been taking place:

    ***

    The Report This Post button is a very valuable tool for those of us who offer advice and support on the diagnosis and treatment threads.  It allows us to get rid of spammers much more quickly than if we had to report the spam to the moderators and wait for the posts to be deleted - that was the old process, and it could take days for posts to be deleted.  For this reason, I think that that Report This Post button is necessary.  But it is being misused, mostly in "social" type situations.  The solution to the misuse is, in my mind, very simple. 

    • Option one: Whenever the Report This Post button is pushed and a post is deleted, the names of the 5 or 6 members who pushed the button should be listed publicly below the "This Post has been removed by the Community" message.  That would stop the abuse pretty quickly.  As someone who uses the button to eliminate spam posts, I have no problem if my name is listed whenever a post is deleted. 
    • Option two:  I assume that the moderators know who has pushed the "report this post" button when a post has been deleted.  If it's determined that the reason for the deletion was strictly personal - i.e. the post was not spam - then after one misuse of the button, the member should be warned.  After two misuses of the button, the member should be warned again.  And after the third misuse of the button the member should be permanently banned from this website. 

    ***

    Something needs to be done.  When the misuse of the Report This Post Button was restricted to the "social" threads, maybe the problem could be ignored (although it probably shouldn't have been since it caused so much in-fighting and angst).  But now that this has invaded the Just Diagnosed forum, this situation cannot be allowed to continue.

  • desdemona222b
    desdemona222b Member Posts: 776
    edited May 2009

    I'm anxiously awaiting a response to this from one of the people who reported the post.  Come on, show yourself!

  • pip57
    pip57 Member Posts: 12,401
    edited May 2009

    Yes, I want to hear their side too.  Now is their opportunity to convince us all that we need their input.

  • barbe1958
    barbe1958 Member Posts: 19,757
    edited May 2009

    When I report a post from someone soliciting something I post a note saying that I did. I'm certainly not afraid to let anyone know what I'm doing. I usually post a response to the originator of the thread telling them that their subject is not appropriate and have they contacted the moderators?

    So who's sneaking around being a bully? 

  • desdemona222b
    desdemona222b Member Posts: 776
    edited May 2009

    There a thread in Help Me Get Through Treatment called "Not for the Easily Offended," barbe.  Regardless of the warning, the easily offended read it and deleted the original post - in fact, they've deleted quite a few posts from the thread.  Check it out.

  • desdemona222b
    desdemona222b Member Posts: 776
    edited May 2009
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Member Posts: 1,376
    edited May 2009
    "1. If you report a topic, post or poster, your name(s) should be posted as one of those responsible.

    2. If you hit the report button, lets say 5 times, all of your own posts should be deleted. This should make you think twice before subjecting everyone else to your self proclaimed rules of conduct. Furthermore, if you have a history of hitting the report button, you should be asked to leave the site since it is clear that it is not a place where you belong.

    3. If you report a subject, the moderators should immediately reissue the deleted post if the records show that you continue to visit the offending topic that originally upset you so much that you deemed it unsuitable for ALL of us."

    I AGREE WITH ALL COMMENTS!!

  • coonie
    coonie Member Posts: 7,618
    edited May 2009

    PIP---great suggestions. I agree!!

  • barbe1958
    barbe1958 Member Posts: 19,757
    edited May 2009

    Sige, LOVE your new avatar!!!!!

    I have reported more than 5 threads though. I roam around the boards and if I come on a solicitation and report it, I usually check their history and see that they've posted on a whole bunch of different forums. I go to each one and report it. Does anyone remember that woman with her breast pictures who didn't have cancer and wanted us to admire her boob job? She was a pain! Then there is a guy that is trying to promote this website for some strange reason...There has been a lot of that crap going on.

    I don't think it's fair that you can report a post from a regular member! We are all here for the same reason. If someone has an offensive post (I read that one mentioned above, and it DID warn about being offensive, so why did someone read it if they couldn't handle it?????) then put on your big girl panties and ignore it. Holy crap, how old are these people??????????

  • desdemona222b
    desdemona222b Member Posts: 776
    edited May 2009

    Don't know how old they are, but still haven't seen a single one of them come onboard to explain why they thought it was appropriate to report the post.

  • barbe1958
    barbe1958 Member Posts: 19,757
    edited May 2009

    Maybe they don't have big girl panties?

  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Member Posts: 1,376
    edited May 2009
    I just lost 77 pounds...I have plenty of big girl panties to go around Kiss
  • barbe1958
    barbe1958 Member Posts: 19,757
    edited May 2009

    CONGRATS!!!! How did you do it? Whichever one you are in your avatar, you're gorgeous! I am SO impressed...

  • desdemona222b
    desdemona222b Member Posts: 776
    edited May 2009
  • Alaina
    Alaina Member Posts: 461
    edited May 2009

    As someone who used to moderate large online forums, I have a few opinions about this from both sides of the coin.

    First of all, moderators have thankless (often unpaid) jobs.  It is very difficult to maintain a forum for hundreds/thousands of people and keep everyone happy.  So the best/only way to manage it is to have hopefully a small set of rules/guidelines that everyone (hopefully) can live with.  When the rules get to be too many or too complicated/complex, then you start having various interpretations of said rules and everyone seeing the same rule 12 different ways and arguments and conflicts arise.

    That said, I don't know all the various rules at play in this particular situation, except that apparently it is a no-no to use explicit profanity in the titles of threads, the content of postings, and possibly in the images of your avatar.  That's a simple enough rule.  It's one that reeks of juvenility for a discussion board supposedly comprised of adults, but I can see how for the comfort of the "MANY" a simple "don't use explicit profanity" rule is appropriate, even if a few (or more) rightfully and justifiably disagree with it.

    So, as a response to this, some people decide they wish to challenge the rule and gather a following to their side who happen to agree with them and their view.  Then the other folks who agree with the rule rally their troops, and fights and conflicts abound, all around what should be a simple rule that all adults can abide by.

    For what it's worth, I don't see anything wrong with being able to use profanity on an adult discussion board.  I believe that if people are offended by seeing such words, they can ignore the users of such words or not visit those threads.  That 's my PERSONAL opinion.  I also despise censorship.

    However, as someone who knows the pains of moderation, I realize that I have to balance my personal opinion on such matters with the rules of those who established and run this site.  And just like I tell others they can simply "not visit an offensive thread" I can also choose not to visit the site that has rules I believe are unreasonable.  It goes both ways.

    In this instance, being a relative newbie to the whole breast cancer thing, I had to balance my need for the support and information provided here against what I believe to be a somewhat overbearing seat of policies for an adult group of women dealing with very sensitive, adult and often gut-wrenching issues.  Ok, so I won't use explicit profanity straight-on-full-out.  I can live with that.  I don't agree with it and think it's silly, but I can live with it.

    One thing people often forget is that private discussion boards (especially FREE ones!) are NOT democracies!  Free speech doesn't apply here and we don't get a vote!  And yes, sometimes power can corrupt, and if I believe the moderators are being unfair to me, then I have a personal decision to make about my time on this particular forum.

    I think as women and as survivors of this disease have a wonderful opportunity to use situations like this to focus on what is really important and not sweat the small stuff (and I say that with the full understanding that I don't know what has transpired along these lines in the previous months/years). 

    I am THRILLED the moderators permitted Debi to return to us because I felt she needed what the majority on these boards have to offer and feel that in very short time, Debi will be paying that support forward by helping someone else get past these very challenging obstacles in this journey BC takes us on.  I would have been extremely disappointed if the small band of merry-deleters had succeeded in not just censoring her (which by rules they may have had the right to do) but also in cutting her off from the support she needs.

    As to the suggestions, the only one I can agree with (in terms of what's actually realistic for the moderators to take on and manage), is having your name show up if you report a post.  I don't believe in throwing rocks and hiding hands, and if you're bad enough to report a post, you should be big enough to show your name.  If you're reporting for reasons that are valid and rules-based, this should be no problem.

    "Overuse" of the reporting feature is subjective.  If the names show, it will be clear who has way too much time on their hands and is abusing the feature.

    It's useless to try and control the behavior of adults.  Asking moderators to make decisions based on whether or not someone "continues to visit an offensive thread" is just as overbearing as the people who continue to visit and report a supposedly offending thread!  One, I'm not sure it's technologically possible (do I really want to know if the moderators can/do track/monitor every thread I visit/read but don't post in?)  Let's not swing the pendulum all the way in the other direction trying to control the behavior of those who would desire to control our behavior.

    I think that this situation, however unfortunate, was resolved in the best way possible, and if accountability and honesty/integrity in reporting behavior comes as a result, then at the end of the day, it was a good thing.

    If nothing else changes from this, Debi is back here with us, with a fuller understanding of the rules, and getting the support and love and care from the community who will surround her as we walk this road together, and at the end of the day, that is the BEST thing!

    Alaina

  • barbe1958
    barbe1958 Member Posts: 19,757
    edited May 2009

    I don't see why free speech doesn't apply to this site....

    Anyway, I got a personal email from someone else who has been suspended from this site until May 22nd, so the damage is not under control yet. She had responded in Deb's thread in a supportive manner and was also booted off. Am I allowed to mention her name? 

  • Alaina
    Alaina Member Posts: 461
    edited May 2009

    Barbe says ~ I don't see why free speech doesn't apply to this site...

    Well I can only offer my opinion based on years of working as a moderator for various large and small internet forums.  Most of these sites are privately run by private citizens.  None of us pay a fee to post here.  We can donate at our personal discretion, but this is a service being provided free to us, being run by a handful (?) of people who may or may not be getting compensated for their time keeping the site operational.

    Because it is private, it has a private set of terms of use that I suspect we had to agree to before being permitted to set up an account to access these boards.  Most of us gloss right past the terms of use and never give much thought to what we're agreeing to in an attempt to get our access and start posting.

    And even with free speech being a hallmark of our personal freedoms in public America, it still does not mean one can yell fire in a crowded theatre or say one has a bomb in their suitcase with no consequences (and I am not implying Debi's post was of that nature).

    As much as we would like them to be, online forums are not democracies.  They run/operate at the will of the person who can turn it off with the flick of a button (and then where would be? on another site run by someone else with the same power...)  We want things to be democracies as long as we believe our opinions and agendas are in the majority.  When we find out we're surprisingly in the minority, then and only then are we willing to bend to the discretion of those who hold the absolute power to make a decision.

    I don't want to belabor the point, I just want to add perspective learned from years of observing all kinds of online behavior and group dynamics.  It doesn't matter what the theme, topic, or purpose of a discussion board is, the behavior/dynamics are the same across the net.

    The only place you get free speech on the net is on the site you own/operate and run.  :-)

  • pip57
    pip57 Member Posts: 12,401
    edited May 2009

    I don't see why you can't mention the name.  

  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Member Posts: 1,376
    edited May 2009

    Barbe...I joined LA Weight Loss, but to be fair I pretty much learned to eat right (less!) and get some exercise.  I'm the one on the right btw :) and thank you!

    PS:  I still don't agree that just anyone should be able to delete a comment...I'm just sayin'

  • 1Cathi
    1Cathi Member Posts: 1,957
    edited May 2009

    Barbe - I know the one you are talking about the idiot with the Boobs, posting all over threads a few months back, I also reported that, and like you I always leave a comment - that I reported it. 

    Anyway her post was deleted - but her Avatar is still there. So anytime someone stumbles across it  - they get to look at her discusting picture, I think those who feel compelled to 'police" would serve us all better by finding ways to get rid of REAL garbage (SPAM) like that.

    This is a BREAST CANCER forum for gosh sakes,  emotions run wide and deep, and if a good CUSS word (or several) helps any one through the journey - then so be it.   If you don't like what you see on TV you turn the channel  if you don't like a certian topic here - DON'T READ IT.

    Pretty simple MATH 1+1=2

  • barbe1958
    barbe1958 Member Posts: 19,757
    edited May 2009

    It was Baywatcher that got booted. She is very upset, her email to me is heartfelt. She was only commiserating with a fellow sister and got the boot....so sad.

    Cathi, I too, still come across that boobs' avatar. Too bad they can't delete it too!

    I guess the real deleters aren't going to post here. I keep making comments to keep it at the top of the list.... 

  • ADK
    ADK Member Posts: 2,259
    edited May 2009

    I agree wholeheartedly and have posted my own threads requesting that the report this post function be modified.  I have not heard anything back from the moderators, so I am beginning to suspect that the software doesn't leave a footprint of who has reported a post.  People get tossed and suspended when their own posts are removed "by the community".  For all we know, this is just one person - how about upping the number required?  I know a large number of women would report spammers, but to have the fate of individuals in the hands of only a few is more than unfair. 

  • AnnNYC
    AnnNYC Member Posts: 4,484
    edited May 2009

    I do think the software leaves a footprint.  Unfortunately, I don't think there is a lot of reviewing of deletions by the moderators.  I understand they have a big job, and perhaps they are underpaid -- but still...

    On occasion the mods have restored deleted comments and "penalized" people who reported posts that didn't merit deletion.  But they haven't done this in quite a while.

    Still, if we all email the moderators about baywatcher, maybe they'll restore her good standing AND her comments...

  • swimangel72
    swimangel72 Member Posts: 1,989
    edited May 2009
    Alaina thank you for your thoughtful and educated response to this situation - I found everything you wrote about the internet and group dynamics to be very interesting. I have been a member of other forums over the years, and you are correct - the power lies with the individuals who "own" the site...........I have seen wonderful sites shut down overnight without explanation and hope that will never happen to bc.org!
  • desdemona222b
    desdemona222b Member Posts: 776
    edited May 2009

    ...still waiting for a deleter to own up...

  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Member Posts: 1,376
    edited May 2009

    The deleter or deleters are not going to own up - they like to remain anonymous -  this situation is escalating out of control and needs to be addressed by the moderators.  There is nothing to stop someone from creating many IDs - then logging on to each one to report the post they don't like - they don't even have to have posted  before to report the post.   This is going to continue until the moderators/owners of this site do something to address the underlying problem.  

    I'd have absolutely no problem having my name appear when I use the report this post to report spam.  

    Doreen 

  • ADK
    ADK Member Posts: 2,259
    edited May 2009

    I am beginning to believe that this board is running on automatic - why don't we hear anything back from the mods on this subject?  Clearly, a wide variety of people are upset and yet, we don't hear a peep from the mods.  The e-mails sent to the people whose posts are deleted are automated and canned.  I suspect that when people are banned, it is also an automatic process.  I suspect this board needs a little more attention than is being devoted to it.  JMHO  

  • Marple
    Marple Member Posts: 19,143
    edited May 2009

    PIP, good points and I couldn't agree more.  I would not mind in the slightest if my name appeared if I reported a post.

    Sige, make sure with all that weight loss your big girl panties don't fall off.  Otherwise we may have to report you.Wink

    I remember the "boob" girl too........Surprised

  • crazy4carrots
    crazy4carrots Member Posts: 5,324
    edited May 2009

    PIP, you're on the right track, IMO.  I had a post "deleted by the community" once.  Nothing offensive in it, just an opinion that someone(s) didn't agree with.  It was reinstated the next day (I guess once the mods had a look at it).

    Button pushers, SHOW YOURSELVES!  It's only fair.

    Linda

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