paravertebral block?
What is your experience and recommendations of the paravertebral nerve block with bilateral mastectomy. I understand there are risks of complications. How much pain without and with am can I expect? Thanks!
Comments
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Skippyrcis - what is a paravertebral block? I had my mastectomy last July & a half hour before surgery the anethesetist came to see me & said I was lucky because he'd been working at a post mastectomy pain clinic & had learned that a "12 hour pain block" was incredibly effective at reducing mastectomy pain. He was very confident & said it was a terrific option & not all anesthetists can do it. So I agreed. I sat up on the operating table, he stuck it in my back (not painful!) then they put me under. I am still amazed, but other than 1 routine shot of morphine at 10 pm (my surgery was at 4) I never took any pain medications, not even an advil, after I woke up from surgery. I literally had not one moment of pain ever. I couldn't believe it. If this is the same as the block you are talking about, go for it!!! (the only pain I ever had was a fleeting 20 seconds when they took out my drainage tube about a month later - now THAT hurt! but was over in a flash.
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Yes, this is the same nerve block I am talking about. I asked an anesthesiologist at work about the pros and cons and he pulled an article out of his bag about the paravertebral block. He said that they do it our hospital and it involves multiple injections around the spine. How long were you numb or were you ever?
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skippyrcis, I had a paravertebral nerve block when I had my left mast/SNB a year ago. It was an option offered by the "pain management team" at my cancer center. Because of a scheduling problem, they didn't have time to administer the nerve block before my surgery, but they tracked me down in the recovery area afterward.
The anesthesiologist gave me 3 or 4 (?) "paravertebral" injections with a local anesthetic. "Paravertebral" means the injections were alongside the spinal column where the spinal nerves come out. He also inserted a very tiny gauge catheter under the skin against the spinal nerve that innervates the chest wall where my mast incision was located. He hooked the tubing to a bag of local anesthetic (bupivacaine) and an i.v. monitor.
The anesthesiologist told me that the drip setup and catheter would adminster a tiny amount of local anesthetic to that spinal nerve, which would block sensation from my mast incision. He said the other injections would wear off after a few hours, but the bupivacaine being administered through the catheter would keep my mast incision area numb for as long as the system was in place.
Now for the bottom line: I would not choose to have a paravertebral block again. I learned too late that the area of the mast incision being numbed by the bupivacaine drip was numb anyway--the nerves were cut during the surgery. The skin and muscle were completely numb along and about 2 inches above and below the incision line, and they stayed that way for many months.
The only places where I had pain were farther above and below the mast incision. Once the one-time injections wore off, those areas hurt like I'd been kicked by a horse. The anesthesiologist had warned me that would happen, and my surgeon ordered Percocet to be given for pain after the surgery. I had some trouble convincing the nurses that I was supposed to be getting an oral pain medication in addition to the catheter delivering the bupivacaine. Once the surgeon confirmed her orders and the nurses brought the Percocet, I was fine.
otter
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wow! could we possibly be talking about 2 different "blocks"? My anesthetist learned this at a pain management clinic, too, in Canada. What he administere before surgery was not 3 or 4 injections, but one long slow injection which felt as though he were using a corkscrew to open a bottle of wine into my back, but which did not hurt at all.As for numbness, yes, but bits &pieces were numb (my extra "bicycle tire wad of fluid/fat? under my left arm (leftover from surgery - I could have that removed later if I choose) is still numb. Is it a question of money or insurance - ie are you trying to determine if the cost is worth it? Or is it dngerous in some way? Maybe I was very lucky & had a good surgeon, but as I say, I've never since the operation had to take so much as an advil. I'm sorry, Otter, that your experience wasn't so great.
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skippyrcis, what were the complications of the paravertebral nerve block? I'm sure I signed a consent form before they administered mine, but I was in that hazy, drug-induced fog right after surgery and I know didn't read the form I was signing.
Ever since then, I've had a spot partway down my back, just to the left of my spinal/vertebral column, that feels like it's bruised. It's in exactly the same place as the catheter had been located. That spot hurt a lot after I got home from my surgery, and it still hurts now.
otter
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I have read both good and bad about the nerve block. It is not a question of money or insurance I just want to make the best decision for me. I don't want to do anything that I don't have to. I work in the medical field and it's my understanding that this is a more recent procedure. One complication that he told me were of toxic levels of the drug given especially with bilateral mastectomy. Several injections are made along the spinal cord from the top of the neck down to below the breast on each side of the spine. He also mentioned that nerve damage could be done causing permanet numbness. Oh yeah, with toxic levels the brain could "shut down" for a while. On the other hand he hooked me up with a woman who had bilateral mastectomy with the block yesterday. I talked to her this morning. She felt great and wanted to go home. She had only had one dose of pain meds because of an ache. Nothing was mentioned to be about another numbness medicine at the incision site. Thank you for your input. I will keep reading. I am sorry to hear that you otter have had trouble. I hope everything works out for you. Maybe with time it will get better. How long has it been since your surgery? Thank you!
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skippyrcis, it's been exactly a year to the day (Feb. 5th) since my mastectomy/SNB. The sore spot on my back really isn't a big deal, and I'm not even sure it's due to the bupivacaine injection or catheter. And, in the grand scheme of things, the nerve block was an interesting experiment.
The bupivacaine injections and/or placement of the tiny catheter didn't cause the long-term numbness at my mast incision. That numbness is a typical SE of the surgery when the nerves are cut or damaged.
otter
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I'm going to bump this up to present day. Paravertebral blocks are used a lot now, and pectoral muscle nerve blocks are becoming more common as well. And even being used in combo - paravertebral has better "staying power" after 12 hrs, but pecs are better intraoperatively and immediately post-op, so the combo would give you the best of both worlds).
I am coming up for a BMX in about 3 1/2 weeks and would love to hear from anyone out there who may have had a paravertebral (aka thoracic spinal) block &/or the pectoral nerve blocks for a double. All of the journal articles talk about intraoperative indicators of analgesia, and post-opereative pain control, but nothing about the patient experience during the surgery. The advantage is that it supposedly eliminates the need for general anesthesia, so shortens recovery time in-hospital, excellent post-operative pain control (because you numb the nerves before you mess around with them), little if any nausea or vomiting, the post-anesthesia "wobbles!, etc. Sounds great.
So - no GA, therefore... you are conscious? Or do they use a combination like fentanyl/midazolam to give you more of a very heavy sedation (like the same effect I had with my colonoscopy or my jaw surgery - don't remember a thing). Sounds like a 2 1/2 hr surgery might not really lend itself to a heavy sedation scenario, but I could be wrong!
Anyone been there, done that? Love to hear about it before I have the chat with my BS and the anesthesiologist.
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I had two single mastectomies, first the cancer breast and then a couple of months later, the other one. I had paravertebral blocks both times. I was told this could lighten anesthesia and make pain meds unnecessary.
A word of caution: for some reason, the first time, they gave me pain meds anyway, right after surgery and then I realized I was on a pump/drip in the hospital room. I spent the evening vomiting and felt very out of it, though pain was minimal.
The second time I made a big deal in preop and before surgery that I wanted NO pain meds and that with the block I did not NEED pain meds. I woke in recovery feeling pretty darn normal and was walking around the hospital floor from the get go. No drowsy, out of it feelings and no nausea.
The pain relief for me lasted 2-3 days. There was pain, different pain after each procedure, but the block really helped early on and for the next week or two I took only a partial oxycodone once in the late afternoon, then just Tylenol.
I strongly recommend the paravertebral block but make sure that EVERYONE knows it means no pain meds, and put in writing too- that tends to make them compliant!
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Thanks windingshores: I wonder why they put you on the pain control? Its the opioids in a lot of those that make folks sick. I'm OK with them so far, but, Yeah - the whole point of the paravertebral is to avoid the additional meds. Thanks for the heads up on that - I will definitely make it clear that nothing beyond the pre-surgical block until I am awake and actually feel I need something. I will decide if & when I need nothing extra.
On another note - my final diagnosis after the C+ MRI on Tuesday was so much better than I had anticipated - I had just spent the past 4 weeks dreading the stage we were going to come out with. Stage IA is about as good as it gets, short of not having BC in the first place. I made the comment to a co-worker that it shows exactly where your life is when you are thrilled at the prospect of having both breasts removed! Because that was the best case scenario!!
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I had the nerve block and it was amazing. I remember sitting up on the operating table to have it done, but really nothing after that.
I woke up with zero pain. Zero. As in, when the nurse asked me about my pain level, I had to honestly respond, "zero."
I was given Tylenol in my drip but that was it. I was permitted to walk all around the hospital floor unassisted; I was not deemed a "fall" risk.
I went home the next day and took my dog for a long walk.
A big bonus per my anesthesiologist is that studies have shown these nerve blocks are actually beneficial in reducing bc recurrence as well. Something to do with limiting bodily inflammation because the nerves don't get inflamed.
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Good to hear candles - I have also heard that the use of propofol seems to be another inhibiter of recurrence (can't quite remember if they'd figured out or perhaps it was it's use with the PVB's). I am very glad to hear about "walking the dog" next day. I have 2 little rug-rats, and although I have a great friend flying 2000 miles to help me out (I'm single, live alone) she is definitely NOT a dog-person, and she can only stay a week - she does have her own life and business that needs attending to.
Did you have the paravertebral or pectoral nerve block? I think the Pecs is something relatively recent (last couple of years). My BS said that they will do the prophylactic blocks as well as infuse local anesthetic into the site through the drains at the end of it all to help prolong the local analgesia.
Glad I restarted this topic - the first few posts were from 2009 while this was still relatively recent to the anesthetic protocols I think. There's been a lot of progress and practice
and it seems to be fairly "routine" now-a-days.
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And I realize that responding to a post that's 8 years old is likely irrelevant at this point, but, the point in pre-emptively numbing a site by blocking the nerve is to stop something called "wind-up". If you can stop a nerve from being stimulated (like by cutting it) it will stop that "pain" information going to the brain & spinal cord. Ever had a cavity in a tooth? How much did that hurt? When you got it repaired can you imagine the pain you would have experienced during & afterward if they didn't give you that injection of anesthetic before they started drilling down into the bone? Block the pain from reaching the spine & brain in the first place, and you decrease it by about 10X or more after the fact.
This is the same thing. Just because you can't feel it because you are asleep doesn't mean the pain pathways are not being stimulated, you just aren't conscious of the pain. But your nervous system is. Your heart rate will still go up, your respiratory rate will go up, and they will likely have to increase your anesthetic when something that would otherwise be painful occurs. And you will feel more pain & discomfort in the entire area when you wake up, not just the incision site - which will be numb due to cut nerves.
Pre-emptive analgesia is awesome! And it sounds like a lot of very positive experiences with it here. Thanks for your feedback.
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