natural alternative encouragers
I gave up tamoxifen after 3 months on it...on October the 12th...my liver enzymes were creeping up and many side effects were key factors in my decision....I enjoy the "bottle of tamoxifen" thread...and still post even though I am opting not to take tamoxifen....and I thought that it would be neat if there was a support thread to build friendships of those of us who opt out of antihormonals.
I am taking some alternative supplements...trying to exercise more and make good nutrition decisions.
I feel like much better since stopping the tamoxifen, "in just 3 weeks". I haven't bled in a couple of weeks, I don't seem to have leg cramps much in the middle of the night, decrease in hot flashes, my emotions are leveling out.
But tonight my onc called and encouraged me to go back on the tamox...I explained my reasoning...side effects...? liver enzymes which todays lab work the ALT went from 40 to 41 in 4 weeks....so at least it is not but 5 points above average...the onc talked with me for some 15 minutes it seemed, but I never said yes, I'd go back on the tamox....but did say I would think about it.
I appreciate any encouragement.
Amber
Comments
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bumping along!
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Hi Amber,
I also stopped taking tamoxifen this year. During the time I took it, hot flashes were my number one complaint. I also didn't sleep well. Plus, I had relentless fatigue and frequent nausea. My chemo/surgery/rads all happened in 05, so as 3-year anniversaries came rolling around, it was very distressing to me that I am still so tired and every single time I tried to increase my activity, I'd feel sick to my stomach.
I didn't really plan on stopping the tamoxifen. At the time I was becoming more aware of my thyroid and arriving at the belief that rads threw my thyroid out of whack. Somehow this didn't seem to capture the attention of my pcp, and the fatigue and nausea were beginning to concern me more than the hot flashes and insomnia. I had a stomach flu in january, and I decided not to take the tamoxifen that day. Or the next. All of a sudden, it was 3 months later and I never took the tamoxifen again. I didn't have to fess up to the onc until june. I was uncertain how he would react. I thought he'd offer other drugs, or tell me some new stats on my risk of recurrence. I got none of that. He basically said most women can take tamoxifen and do fine with the side effects, and others suffer miserably.
I took tamoxifen for 2 years and 2 months. I hold a pretty low opinion of doctors in my community. I feel like they set the bar so low for standard of care that it's subterranean. Dont even ask for my list of complaints unless you want to read a novelette! lol
On a more positive note, I've been learning about natural healing this year and it has really captured my attention. In the past I thought I kinda sorta knew about all that line of thinking, but I was mistaken. I've been walking regularly for 3 years now and forever tweaking my food choices. It's hard to avoid corn syrup, but I've eliminated a major portion of my intake of it. I dusted off my champion juicer last year in december and now drink at least 32 ounces of fresh sqeezed juice every day. And most days I have ground flaxseed, yogurt, honey, and flaxseed oil for breakfast. I started that routine months before I ever heard of the budwig protocol. Well, almost. I didn't include the oil until 4 months ago. I tried it with the cottage cheese and really didn't care for it. I think the flax is so much better with yogurt. I'm hoping I get as much or more benefit from that than I did from the tamoxifen.
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Althea, you are a dear and have brought tears to my eyes. thanks for sharing....I used to eat ground flaxseed especially after getting the diagnosis....but lately I have been leary of it...but most everthing I have read is postitive, and what you have shared makes me realize I need to go with my gut...I have read that women who ate flax muffins excreted more estrogen in their urine.
My sister is a 9 year survivor and takes flaxoil supplements daily....she gave up tamoxifen too. our cancers were similar....except that she had positive lymph nodes and mine were neg.
I think I will try the ground flax with yogurt....I found out yesterday that my Vit D levels are low...so I went to the healthfood store and bought the "NOW" brand of vit D 2,000U. It may be in my mind, but I feel better...my legs ache though and feet, and I think the tamox may have caused that or just being on my feet to much.
the Onc nurse called tonight and told me that the doctor wants to repeat the liver enzymes in 2-3 weeks, the day before Thanksgiving....I think he wants to make sure he makes every effort to get me to start back on the tamoxifen.....I am going to call tomorrow and cancel the lab work and tell her that sometime in December is better.
Althea, Thanks for listening and being a friend!
PS I dusted off the juicer while I was going thru rads....tucked it back in the cabinet later...but you have encouraged me to bet it back out, I just bought 2 bags of carrots with that in mind...then those carrots are hiding in the back of the frig (out of site out of mind)...I will make an effort to juice tomorrow!
Amber
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You're probably lucky your onc will even test your liver enzymes. I have to see a pcp for that. My onc won't even test my hormone levels. First, I asked a nurse, and her response was they only do 'cancer-related tests'. I don't know why I even asked her. She was the same nurse who answered my question about whether I should get a flu shot while going through radiation, and in her sickenly singsong voice said, "I don't see why not!" I wanted to say, "you don't see why not???? how about this.... I'm a damn cancer patient in the middle of rads, on the heels of surgery and chemo, how about that for a reason maybe not to get one???" #*($(#*#&$) Makes you wonder how some people find their way home at night. But I digress.
I didn't see the point in asking this same nurse how could estrogen NOT be cancer-related when my tumor had been FEEDING on it. I later asked the onc directly, and his response was "the information isn't useful." See what I mean about subterranean standards of care? I truly feel like I'm on my own when it comes to seeking my way back to health (locally speaking anyway).
One thing I like about alternative approaches to health is the way that it really depends on US to create our health. The effectiveness of the approach is a topic of much disagreement, but I truly do prefer the option that allows me a higher degree of control over my results. So get those carrots out and juice some of them. It's such a good habit to have. You'll get to where you can't be without it.
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Althea, that is a good point, about making decisions for our own bodies...my onc didn't do hormone labs when I mentioned it....even my gyn was reluctant...but his best friend had BC last year and is still having a difficult time....he shared her story with me....then he had this look on his face and said we can do the hormone test if you like...I do believe when cancer touches any doctor personally they are more apt to do more....he seemed like he knew a great deal about treatment for BC.... and even told me that he felt estrogen in our body is a mitogen not a carcinogen.....because every woman has estrogen but not all get BC....there must be another culprit that cause the cells to go hay wire and malignant....cancer cells are anerobic they don't like oxygen....so I am trying to do things that promote oxygenation...CoQ 10, I took 400mg daily after diagnosis from first lumpectomy, then when the surgeon did the resection there was hardly any cancer left....now I just take 200mg, I wish there were more studies on alternative treatments, I would join up in a heart beat....the coq10 gives me energy...so It must be getting oxygen to the mitochondria.
well I am off for a walk with a friend, the leaves are gorgeous here in NC, we are walking at a local park that has a canopy of trees, I have never walked there in the fall, so I am hoping it is beautiful.
Have a blessed day Althea!
and blessings to all!
Amber
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Althea - I live in a different state but otherwise I would think we had the same onc and nurses!! Same reply for Flu shots as I underwent rads in November. My onc does include liver enzymes when ordering blood work propably because they are already included in the chemistry panel. All other tests I have done by my PCP. He would not consider measuring hormone levels but wanted to start me on Lupron shots and Tamox. I wanted baseline hormone tests done as I was premenopause and 100% hormone receptor positive. I felt I was not being properly monitored so I got an ooph a few months later after treatments and switched to Femara. My onc never informed me when I started Femara that I would need to take Calcium and Vitamin D supplements or monitor my Cholesterol levels. Otherwise, it would mean he would have to monitor those values which he refuses. This is why I spend so much time doing my own research and spending time with you ladies here. Best wishes Joann
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I am so happy to read your posts. I started Tamoxifen after rads this past August and a week ago I stopped taking it. I can't even describe how much I hated that drug. I had joint pain like I've never had in my life, nausea, mood swings and depression...don't get me started. It was so bad that my daughter asked me if I was taking something! (I hadn't told anyone I had started the Tamox, because I really didn't want to but my onc and rad onc made such a fuss I felt I had to at least try it) I am feeling so much better already! I know I may be playing Russian Roulette with my health but I don't care. I am not taking Tamoxifen again. I saw my surgeon this week and even she tried to convince me to start it again and suggested I go on an anti-depressant. I don't want to go that route so I am looking at as many natural supplements as I can and trying to eat very well and exercise.
For me quality of life is everything and Tamoxifen took that away. I felt the side effects were more than I can stand.
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Joann, you have really been thru it...at my last visit with my onc. I complained about leg cramps and he told me to try an old wives tale "to put a bar of soap between the sheets" that his grandmother did it...but he did tell me he doesn't know much about alternative things...and I have found out that unless you have a complication the docs do not usually tell you what to expect. Vit D and calcium are very important...my gyn finally called me this afternoon and the nurse said to take calcitrate...I told her what I had bought at the health food store and that I was adding tums, and she said that would be fine....but I am taking a larger dose of Vit D than the calcitrate has.
Wintermoon, I am with you on the quality of life issue...my husband let me know when the onc called and encouraged me to take the tamox that he was against it...my surgeon will give me the second degree too...I just worry that I will not get the proper follow up if I don't follow the doctors protocol... Hey isn't it funny that your doc wants you to take more med like an antidepressant. The BC nurse told me that the doc could give me a sleeping pill to help with the insomnia...I didn't want more pills.
I am feeling great today! Hope you gals have a great weekend...my kids are in golf tournaments this weekend so my husband and I will each go with the kids....it is suppose to be 53 degrees in the morning....so I might bring out the eskimo coat....I hate to be cold.
God Bless all!
Amber
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What do you think the significance of ALT going from 40 to 41 is? Heck, that isn't even within the specificity of the assay. Meaning, it isn't "creeping up," it's the variability of the assay.
I wish I could take something that would prevent my cancer recurring, at only a cost of some leg cramps, hot flashes, and the occasional mood swing. Small price to pay.
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it is hard to explain in detail all the in and outs LJ13, My ALT was 24 prior to starting tamoxifen, but the 41 is after I stopped the tamoxifen, my onc called and still wants to recheck in 2 weeks, my alt/ast ratio has creeped higher as well and I didn't mention all the problems the tamoxifen was causing...
But to me the quality of life is of great importance, when I started the tamoxifen I had decided in advance that if my liver enzymes went up or I had gyn issues develop, that I would stop tamoxifen.
I have prayed about this too...and both problems... were overwhelmingly occurring at the same time...so I really feel good about my decision.
I hope this thread offers encouragement to those who have made similar choices...Like Althea and my sister....My sister is 9 years in remission and uses alternatives....she did some traditional chemo and radiation, but after trying antihormonals, decided to not continue...but everyone is different and I respect the choices of those who have taken tamoxifen, AI's, Lupron and other medicines, BC treatment is difficult and we all need encouragement.
I wish we could all take something to prevent breast cancer from recurring, but there are no guarantees even with tamoxifen, My friends sister had a recurrence at the end of tamoxifen, some on this website have had mets develop even though their lymph nodes were neg while they were on tamoxifen...My doctor even told me there were no guarantees with any cancer treatment that would keep cancer of any kind from recurring.
So we just do the best we can, hope and pray.
I wish you the best LJ13,
Amber
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