The Bailout: For or Against

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anneshirley
anneshirley Member Posts: 1,110

10/3:  I had decided to stop posting here since the bailout bill just passed the house, and I then I  saw a news article that California has just asked the federal government for a $7 billion loan to pay its bills.  We're on to a new phase of bailout!

Aother political thread for us to enjoy or hate!  The proposed bailout of Wall Street has me more incensed than usual, and I believe it probably is affecting many of you the same way, whether you're Obama supporters, McCain supporters, or independents.  I've been around for a long time, through many ups and downs of our country, old enough to remember the Korean War and grateful that my father was 4F, holding my breath through the Vietnam war with one brother in the air force and one in the army, although in the end neither served in Nam. I've been through many economic ups and downs, and never particularly worried that the country wouldn't survive.  At the end of my working life I was a consultant in the computer industry, and every Christmas those of us who did this type of work knew we'd lose our jobs for a month or so, while CEO's pared down budgets to placate their boards, but I always knew they'd hire me back in January or February, and I always refused unless they raised my wage, so I never really felt threatened and started to treat it as a game.  Even that time in the late 80's when I borrowed at 19% interest from my credit cards to buy food and pay the rent waiting for things to get better, I wasn't worried.  They did get better, and I did well!

This is the first time that I feel threatened, and I've  been scurrying around taking money out of vulnerable assets and getting them into FDIC insured accounts, and I'm still worried.  We have a house in Maine, that we purchased at considerably below market so it's selling price now is still better than most, and I know we won't sell it for years.  We've put off plans to return to Europe as even if we sold our house, the dollar is too weak to spend outside the United States.

Just now, watching the McLaughlin Group, when McLaughlin asked Mort Zuckerman, a billionaire, how much money he had lost in this current crisis, he replied that more than a year ago he had moved the majority of his assets into cash.  Zuckerman has been predicting this crisis for a while now--I should add he's against the bailout as currently conceived.  The only good thing to hear on the program, for us, was a list of the assets lost by all those CEO's who brought this on us. But most of them are still millionaires!  How about a few jail sentences was my thought watching those numbers on the screen. 

In some of my posts I attack the Democrats for hypocrisy but lots of that is posturing to get a point across; in truth, I wanted the Democrats to win this year since, of course, Nader doesn't stand a chance, but now I want us to disband the government altogether. Perhaps a board of little old ladies who have nothing to lose in life, no egos to preserve, and no millions in the bank, just a desire to see their grandchildren lead good lives, could run the government for a bit.  None of the candidates for president or vice president has a clue how to deal with this problem, whether McCain, Obama (or Nader), and from where I'm standing they don't care. I suppose they think they'll deal with it tomorrow--like Scarlett O'Hara.  They had a debate where neither of the candidates talked about the bailout beyond a few platitudes.  Ladies, this is serious stuff.  What are we to do?  

P.S. Let's abandon "multitasking" to its fate somewhere on page fifty of these threads.

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Comments

  • abbadoodles
    abbadoodles Member Posts: 2,618
    edited September 2008

    Hi, Anneshirley, glad to find you so calm. LOL  Well, it's no joke, of course. 

    My gut tells me the bailout is, indeed, necessary.  My gut also tells me that here is another famous case of institutions we were taught to respect and trust not working in our best interests.  We are pretty much on our own.

    It's funny, isn't it, how "regular" people could see this coming when the intelligentsia and ruling class kept insisting all would be well and we were just a bunch of hicks who couldn't understand these involved financial concepts. 

    Neither party is without blame on this one.  All were asleep at the switch.  And we are the ones who will be paying for it. 

    Now I'll go back to my knitting.  It's so zen, just what I need at a time like this.

  • anneshirley
    anneshirley Member Posts: 1,110
    edited September 2008

    Tina--I agree.  It doesn't much matter now, except from a fairness perspective, which party or person was at fault, the problem needs to be addressed.  Amy, on the Obama thread, wondered why the government didn't give the money directly to the people who are losing their homes, at low interest rates rather than to Wall Street.  That's certainly a more decent solution, in terms of fairness, but I doubt if it would work, only because people being people, those with higher rates than those offered by the government might go into foreclosure to get the better rates.  Also, the process would be too slow to get liquidity into the markets fast enough to reassure the public.  It's a socialist solution (and I'm a socialist) but I doubt it would work at this time.  But at least it's a proposal that doesn't just bow to Wall Street.

    I liked Zuckerman's solution today.  He said the government should act as Warren Buffet did with Goldman Sachs, where he got preferred stock, the right to a 10% equity interest in the firm down the line, and, very important, interest payments.  The current government plan allows for none of these taxpayer benefits.  It's a particularly strange situation, as we have Democrats pushing the bailout and Republicans pushing back.  I think both parties are in a panic with the election coming up and, in part, acting on that coming event, which means the solution is scrambled towards doing what's best from a public relations perspective and not what's best for the country.  And now so much time has gone by that it may not be possible to stop and rethink.

    I predict that this will have an impact on the elections, but I'm not sure what type of impact.  We have more than a month, so if the bailout plan goes through today, and the markets don't show marked improvement by November 4, the electorate will probably assign more blame to the Democrats, rightly or wrongly.  If the markets improve, the Democrats will get the credit--and in this instance that would be fair since they are the ones pushing the plan. 

    Tomorrow I will be shopping around at local banks to determine if any of them are safe.  My good friend, shortly to retire from teaching, had all her money in Washington Mutual and she's in a panic, although I keep telling her to calm down since she's pretty much close to the amount insured for IRA's.  It's strange how so many of us calmly sat through the last year knowing this was coming yet without doing anything about it, me included.  Procrastination is not good.

    My husband just announced that Ireland is in a huge recession, with real estate prices tumbling.  And just a few years ago, it was the Celtic Tiger.  No place to hide, I suspect. 

  • anneshirley
    anneshirley Member Posts: 1,110
    edited September 2008

    It looks like this is it!  And now the clock starts ticking.  Markets will probably rebound at least temporarily but it will be closer to election day that we see if the rebound is temporary or has some lasting power:

    Lawmakers work to nail down $700B bailout plan

    By JULIE HIRSCHFELD DAVIS – 45 minutes ago

    WASHINGTON (AP) — Key lawmakers who struck a post-midnight deal on a $700 billion bailout for the financial industry predicted Sunday it would pass Congress, putting in place the largest government intervention in markets since the Great Depression.

    Negotiators sought to iron out the final shape of the legislation, which House Republicans still had to review. It was their fierce opposition to a federal rescue that nearly torpedoed an emerging bipartisan pact late in the week.

    But officials in both parties were hopeful for a House vote Monday, and the two presidential candidates said they probably would support it.

    Under the rescue plan, the government would pump as much as $700 billion into beleaguered financial firms that are starving for cash, taking over huge amounts of devalued assets from the companies in the hopes of unlocking frozen credit.

    The proposal is designed to end a vicious downward spiral that has battered all levels of the economy, in which hundreds of billions of dollars in investments based on mortgages gone bad have cramped banks' willingness to lend.

    "This is the bottom line: If we do not do this, the trauma, the chaos and the disruption to everyday Americans' lives will be overwhelming, and that's a price we can't afford to risk paying," Sen. Judd Gregg, the chief Senate Republican in the talks, told The Associated Press on Sunday. "I do think we'll be able to pass it, and it will be a bipartisan vote."

    A breakthrough came when Democrats agreed to incorporate a GOP demand — letting the government insure some bad home loans rather than buy them — designed to limit the amount of federal money used in the rescue.

    Another important bargain, vital to attracting support from centrist Democrats and Republicans who are fiscal hawks, would require that the government, after five years, submit a plan to Congress on how to recoup any losses.

    The plan would give Congress a stronger hand in controlling the money than the Bush administration wanted. Lawmakers could block half the money and force the president to jump through some hoops before using it all. The government could get at $250 billion immediately, $100 billion more if the president certified it was necessary, and the last $350 billion with a separate certification — and subject to a congressional resolution of disapproval.

    Still, the resolution could be vetoed by the president, meaning it would take extra-large congressional majorities to stop it.

    The presidential nominees came behind the outlines of the bailout.

    "This is something that all of us will swallow hard and go forward with," said Republican Sen. John McCain of Arizona. "The option of doing nothing is simply not an acceptable option."

    His Democratic rival, Illinois Sen. Barack Obama, sought credit for taxpayer safeguards added to the initial proposal from the Bush administration. "I was pushing very hard and involved in shaping those provisions," he said.

    House Republicans said they're still reviewing the plan.

    "We are not ready to say that a deal is done," Rep. Eric Cantor, R-Va.

    Congressional leaders announced a tentative deal in the early hours of Sunday morning after marathon negotiations at the Capitol.

    "We've still got more to do to finalize it, but I think we're there," said Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson, who also participated in the negotiations in the Capitol.

    Executives whose companies benefit from the rescue could not get "golden parachutes" and would see their pay packages limited.

    The government would receive stock warrants in return for the bailout relief, giving taxpayers a chance to share in financial companies' future profits.

    To help struggling homeowners, the plan requires the government to try renegotiating the bad mortgages it acquires with the aim of lowering borrowers' monthly payments so they can keep their homes.

    "Nobody got everything they wanted," said Democratic Rep. Barney Frank of Massachusetts, chairman of the House Financial Services Committee. He predicted it would pass, though not by a large majority.

    Gregg, R-N.H., said he thinks taxpayers will come out as financial winners. "I don't think we're going to lose money, myself. We may, it's possible, but I doubt it in the long run," he said.

    Frank appeared on C-SPAN, Obama was on CBS' "Face the Nation," McCain spoke on "This Week" on ABC and Cantor was on "Late Edition" on CNN.

  • abbadoodles
    abbadoodles Member Posts: 2,618
    edited September 2008

    Anneshirley, I always watch McLaughlin Group; it's on Friday evenings in my area.  In my house, we call it the Friday Night Fights.  Do you remember those?  Gillette and all that???

    Mort is a smart guy.  Actually, they are all smart on that show.  Different politics, but all smart.  Actually, I took about 2/3 of our savings and retirement accounts out of the market about two years ago and put it into cash: money market funds and CD's.  How happy I am now, although we still have a considerable amount at stake in the market.

    I don't think homeowners who bought houses with no money down and poor credit should get anything in this bailout.  After all, they have essentially been paying rent to the bank/mortgage company instead of a landlord in the intervening period between "purchase" and now.  I ***do*** think that homeowners who have done everything right should receive some help in the form of re-negotiated mortgage rates and terms.

    Wouldn't it be nice if the vipers who created this mess (sub-prime loans and the resultant skyrocketing housing prices from so many easy dollars chasing real estate) could be punished?  I doubt that is going to happen.  Too many layers of deceit and then, did you ever hear the one about not being able to get blood from a stone???

    BTW, I am a raving capitalist but one with a conscience, so out of favor these days.

  • BethNY
    BethNY Member Posts: 2,710
    edited September 2008

    I wish there was a handbook written specifically for me, spelling out in easy terms how the economy and the bailout will affect my money, my investments, and my future.

    I understand the terms of the bailout, and agree that it is necassary.  I am not in a panic over my WaMu accounts, although I wish my advisor spent a lot more time reassuring me.  Thank G-d for Suze Orman...

     I'm over people telling me that b/c I'm young I have nothing to worry about when it comes to my investments. I started working at 15, and cancer almost bankrupt me at 26.  Karma, good fortune, and some smart investments have given me financial freedom, and a diverse portfolio as I enter my 30's.

    For the last year, I felt like I was way ahead of the game.  Now, I question what the smartest financial moves are, and I just wish there was someone that could guide me through this.

    Sorry for the rant....surely I can't be the only one that feels like this.

  • anneshirley
    anneshirley Member Posts: 1,110
    edited September 2008

    Tiny--I'm a raving socialist who acknowledges that some aspects of capitalism work, and also with a conscience, so I've always been out of favor.  Maybe that's what makes me so cantankerous.  You were wise in your decisions, and I think I covered myself last week--but I suspect I developed an ulcer waiting to see my money complete its transfer into an insured fund. 

    I agree fully with your comment about those who put no money down. They had nothing at risk,  and are responsible, although not equally, with those who gave them the money.  After all, wouldn't a majority of people accept such a deal since they know they can walk away if it doesn't work out.  But the people who gave them the deal, I say, "burn them at the stake."  A violent socialist, I should add. LOL   I also agree that those who followed the rules but got caught in a mess not of their making deserve our help.  I hope they get it. 

    I doubt it will happen either--punishment--but I'll certainly write letters with that suggestion, hoping that someone is listening. 

    Beth--I agree with you.  It is a bit more unsettling for those who are older as many of them don't have more time to built capital, but younger people are also affected.  None of us want to lose people for which we worked hard and invested for our futures.  It sounds as though you had most of your money in FDIC insured accounts.  Last week when I was looking for other ways to park my money I spoke to an investor and asked how long it takes to get your money back (if FDIC insured) and he said he had two recent cases and it was no longer than a month. Hope he wasn't just giving me smoke and mirrors.

    I am also trying to figure out where to put IRA money, since I have to find an investment in less than 60 days.  So any investment folks out there, please advise. 

  • saluki
    saluki Member Posts: 2,287
    edited September 2008

    Anneshirley---Hint! Hint!----Stay away from Wachovia.............Seems that they are frantically trying to get a suitor like CitiBank........

    Soon, I guess, they will be renaming our mega sports and entertainment  center in Philly..........

    I am angry about the bailout, but I feel it needs to be done......

    Personally, I'm glad the house Republicans voiced their opposition-----I was infuriated that the Housing Trust Fund--the slush fund that feeds ACORN would  get funding from this..........

    This from the Consumers Rights League

    http://www.consumersrightsleague.org/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=23729 

    I know there has to be a bill but I want them to get it right even if it takes a few more days.

    I have an extremely small IRA which I have to start drawing on next year since I'm disabled and no longer able to work----Before the market dive I would have been lucky if it lasted three years.  I truly can't bring myself to look at it........

    And of all things to have had part of it in----A Financial Services fund!!!

    Seems to late to pull out of anything ---- I'm afraid of a run on the money market funds as well-----Anything you do in an IRA outside a bank takes time........

    Really don't know what to do.... 

    I'm hoping that Warren Buffet optimistic play of buying a five billion dollar stake in Goldman Sacks is a good omen........

  • BethNY
    BethNY Member Posts: 2,710
    edited September 2008

    I did go mostly FDIC insured.  However, my biggest financial gains came from some investments in CANCER... wahoo, I actually made some smart moves in the market b/c of this shiteous illness.

    The back and forth debate over my mutual funds is giving me indigestion. I picked a dollar amount of losses that would be my breaking point.  If I pull out now, and put it in an FDIC money market, I lose everything I've already lost, and the interest rates on the money market wouldn't get me anywhere.  Then I thought about pulling the mutual funds, putting some in a CD and hitting the market with the rest.  I can invest in stocks at incredibly low prices, but thats a risky play. 

    I'm watching my Roth IRA and trying not to vomit.  My mom went has an annuity with WaMu and it is paying off for her.  She panicked with the JP Morgan Chase take over, but everything is business as usual.  The branches will remain the same, with the WaMu name for 12-24 months, with Chase overseeing everything. 

    I want to add that I am disppointed and angry too.  I'm mad that people took houses they couldn't afford, and there were no regulations, and I'm mad that shady loans were given out like Halloween candy, but it is what it is, and now we have to move forward.

    I need some tums.

  • anneshirley
    anneshirley Member Posts: 1,110
    edited September 2008

    Susie--my IRA which was an annuity held by MetLife got transferred quickly, faster than I had supposed. You need to find out what forms they need, fill them in, and fax.  I then called every day, some times twice a day--good thing too.  Because I didn't send a copy of a check of the bank to which the transfer was going (and, of course, I wasn't told this was required) it got held up for two days, but I had the money in five business days. 

    The caveat here is that my money was not insured and would have been gone if MetLife failed, but in other ways it was not at risk, as funded (your) assets might be, so that's where you may have to be careful. You don't want to remove your funds at the lowest point in the market. I was getting a very small interest but I wanted to feel safe and preferred a guaranteed interest rate to the flux of the market.  If you decide to get your funds, you have sixty days from the day they release your funds to reinvest in another IRA without paying taxes.  However, considering your circumstances you may not be that vulnerable.  I believe that taking the money for disability may waive some penalties; about the actual taxes I don't know. You should talk to a financial consultant to see what your options are.

    Good luck in whatever you do!  I feel for you and for all

    Beth--Wow, you do have some decisions.  Your mother should check to see if her annuity is insured.  That was my problem, mine wasn't.  And I had no idea with banks and life insurance companies going down every day if MetLife was good or not.  I feel so much better now that the money is in an FDIC insured account, and tomorrow I start looking for its new home.

    Good luck but I think you'll be okay.  There is some truth in the maxim that the markets always come back and it sounds as though you have time at least.

  • Bren-2007
    Bren-2007 Member Posts: 6,241
    edited September 2008

    I saw Suze Orman on some political show the other night (can't remember which one) and she pretty much stated she didn't have any money in stocks ... took all hers out and put it in CD's or cash.  Advised all to pay off their credit cards (duh). 

    The big investment firms quit giving credit.  They have no money to back it up.  So, if the mom and pop store on the corner can't get credit to buy needed supplies, the business goes under and their 10-50 employee's get laid off. 

    They have no money because they backed their packages on the market with all the bad home loans the banks and mortgage companies sold them.  The banks and mortgage companies (think Countrywide) pushed bad loans on anyone hungy for the American dream of home ownership, even though the home owner couldn't make the payments based on their income.   

    Hell .. all of the homes (4) I've bought as a single person I've done with a stated income loan.  That's based on a credit rating, not on any check of my actual income or tax records.  So, as long as I paid my credit cards on time, I could by a house!! 

    This totally sucks.  The investment firms have the govt and taxpayers by the balls.  Either pay up that 700 billion or we'll crash the economy. 

    This practice of selling mortgages no one can afford has been going on for years and years ... and no one has done a thing to stop it ... until now.

    Beth ... pass the TUMS. 

  • anneshirley
    anneshirley Member Posts: 1,110
    edited September 2008

    financialservices.house.gov

    The above is one of the government websites where you can read the proposed legislation, as just announced by Nancy Pelosi, et al.  I've clicked a few times without luck, but the server is probably overwhelmed with people like me wanting to see what we're committed to.

    This post is not aimed at the Democrats, but they were the ones who held the conference and took the credit, so I have no one else to aim it at--yet!  The Republicans will be talking soon. The self-congratulatory tone, particularly Chris Dodd's, was rather disturbing considering what they were congratulating themselves for.  And the constant self praise for staying up late to finish the job (last night until 1:30 a.m.) was ridiculous.  I frequently stayed up all night, and very often until 3:00 or 4:00 in the morning working on projects that had tight deadlines.  That's expected if you work in business and you're in a position of responsibility, particularly when dealing with emergencies. It seems that late hours are unusual for our senators and congressmen.  

    While they were holding their conference a banner kept going across the bottom of the TV stating that the CEO of Washington Mutual, after 18 days on the job, was walking away with 13 million dollars, plus. 

    If I understand one of the analysts who has seen the legislation, the congratulations they were giving themselves for the provision on limited compensation for executives is for the following. Any company that gets help from this bailout must keep its pay scale at $500,000 a year or below, or pay a hefty tax to the government for any salaries over $500,000.  The analyst, someone in the financial sector, said it's unreasonable to expect a top executive to work for $500,000.  Poor souls!  If we just let the markets adjust on their own with no bailout, and top financial institutions throughout the United States and the world fail, where are these men and women going to go to get the $30,000,000 a year in salaries they seem to expect? 

    With such attitudes dominating, we're sure to see the same old again and again.  As my husband, the gold standard in cynics, said when the conference was over, "More bits of colored glass for the natives."  That wasn't, by the way a slam at native Americans, but at us for never, ever, holding our government accountable.  

    Anyway, I'm off to read! 

  • LuAnnH
    LuAnnH Member Posts: 8,847
    edited September 2008

    I was curious and popped in this thread and personally all these numbers have more zeros on them then I will every know in an entire lifetime.  I think this whole mess came about by pure greed!!!!  I'm sure there is more to it but I can't believe a person can run a business into the ground and walk away with a severance package that is in the millions of dollars.  I watch struggling families working two and three jobs to making less than $10 and hour, so I just can't grasp the magnitude of all of this....Only in America!

  • Paulette531
    Paulette531 Member Posts: 738
    edited September 2008

    Against...but I suppose it's a necessary evil. I do like the part about top execs getting ONLY $500,000 or face a huge tax liability but even at that I bet there are ways around that.

  • anneshirley
    anneshirley Member Posts: 1,110
    edited September 2008

    Cut it out you "respectful" and "positive" guys; some of the stuff you post about each other's candidates is over the top.  The issues are so serious in this election that rubbing the opposition nerves raw by attacking the person of their candidate serves no rational purpose.  I would have assumed you would want to bring others along with you by showing what your candidate brings to the table and not drive people away. And since I've made comments about the sexism and ageism on the Obama thread I have to say something about racism on the Republican thread.  Please take that picture down!

    I realize that my advocacy of Nader is going nowhere so it makes sense for me to stop posting, at least on politics.  I hope I'll meet up with some of  you on the other threads, and thanks for listening to my rants. Don't forget to vote--and as the Irish politicians would have said at the turn of the last century, do it often.

  • BethNY
    BethNY Member Posts: 2,710
    edited September 2008

    I am FLOORED.  I cannot believe the republicans couldn't pass the vote!!!!!

    Stocks are plummetting... 133 republican representatives voted against the bailout!!!!!

    I am fuming right now.  And, beyond confused and worried about what happens next...

  • shokk
    shokk Member Posts: 1,763
    edited September 2008

    Beth Nancy Pelosi didn't need the Republicans vote to get the bill passed...........the Democrats have majority in the House and Senate.........there were eleven Democrats that voted against the bill and those were the votes that were needed to pass the bill.............Shokk

  • djd
    djd Member Posts: 866
    edited September 2008

    Country First my A$$:

    John McCain was supposed to deliver 100 House Republican votes. He only delivered 65. Democrats were supposed to deliver 120 House Democratic votes, they delivered 140.

    "We're optimistic that Senator McCain will bring House Republicans on board without driving other parties away, resulting in a successful deal for the American taxpayer," said McCain spokeswoman Kimmie Lipscomb. - TIME

    "What Senator McCain was able to do was to help bring all of the parties to the table, including the House Republicans, whose votes were needed to pass this" - McCain campaign top aide Steve Schmidt, Meet the Press, September 28, 2009

     ***************

    What a crock of bull.

  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Member Posts: 1,376
    edited September 2008

    The house is controlled by Dems ......  but the bailout should be non partisan.  I believe if the government is going to bail out the economy, the government should get a piece of the action when it turns around.

    We have bailed out foreign governments and get little return and I am sick of that.  We need to bail ourselves out now .. the buck stops here and from now on, every investment, loan and hand out should come with strings attached.

  • anneshirley
    anneshirley Member Posts: 1,110
    edited September 2008

    My non-political comment.  I plan to take cash out of our accounts to hold us together for one year,  for food and the bare essentials. 

    My political comment.  If I sound irrational, I can only blame the politicians who keep telling us this is the financial Armageddon.

    I told my husband as we turned to our right and left to sleep last night that I had given up on political threads.  I fell asleep to laughter.

  • BethNY
    BethNY Member Posts: 2,710
    edited September 2008

    The dow is down -777.68. as of a few minutes ago-- I think it's the  lowest in US history.

    I guess it's wrong of me to blame one party, but John McCain suspended his campaign, to move mountains in Washington, and promised he'd have 100 votes from the repubs...

  • FEB
    FEB Member Posts: 552
    edited October 2008

    McCain got Pelosi the votes, and she blew it!! She came out and started blaming McCain, blaming the republicans, and they reneged. IF she had kept her mouth shut, as well as the other dumb dems, the deal would have gone through. But NOOO she had to play politics. Not country first. It was the dems who got us into to this mess to begin with by not demanding oversight of Fannie and Freddie, and listening to Greenspan and McCain years ago when they warned that this would happen. It is the dems who are indebted to the wall street profiteers, not the republicans. So if you want more of the same, Keep voting for the foxes to guard the hen house. If you truly want change, vote for the guy who foresaw this and tried to stop it from happening. If you do not want this to happen again., vote for the guy who is willing to put his country first, not for the guy who has wall street and freddie execs as his advisors. Check the facts. Vote for McCain!

  • anneshirley
    anneshirley Member Posts: 1,110
    edited September 2008

    Beth--I'm feeling a little anxiety here, but when I think rationally, I know this will turn out okay in the end.  A piece of our financial markets depends on making money off money, which is somthing I've always stayed away from for philosophical reasons.  But a bigger piece actually has solid backing.  I remember when the stock prices of companies like Lucent, formerly Bell Labs, collapsed, I seriously questioned why (other than bad management) because I knew the company's assets were worth more than the stock price indicated:  buildings, patents,  equipment, good will in the market, knowledgable personnel. And the stock did come back, not to where it had been but that's because it was overvalued for the wrong reasons. If you have stock in good, productive companies, don't panic, please.  Sorry if I helped this along.Foot in mouth  I am taking out some money to keep in the house in case ATM's and credit cards stop dispensing cash for a short while, but definitely not becoming like one of those little old ladies who stash hundreds of thousands of bills in their mattresses. And you're definitely not old enough to join their ranks.Smile

  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Member Posts: 1,376
    edited September 2008

    beth - lowest intraday ever,  lowest close in history.

    edit: 2nd lowest to lowest close in history.

    it seems pelosi made a speech that annoyed house republicans and they got confused and forgot they were voting on a bill and

    voted on a speech instead. that is my opinion.

    in the meantime american's 401ks tumble in value and we will have to pay in the end no matter what. outlook on  tomorrow's market and foreign markets look bleak.

    it would be nice if both parties could come together and fix the mess as both of them have created it.   

  • shokk
    shokk Member Posts: 1,763
    edited September 2008
    Why in the world would Pelosi come out before the vote and call the Republicans unpatriotic?.....it makes you wonder if the Democrat leaders even really want the bill to pass.......if the country stays in this economy upheaval doesn't that make Obama more electable?......makes you wonder.........either that or she is the stupidest woman alive.........Shokk
  • OneBadBoob
    OneBadBoob Member Posts: 1,386
    edited September 2008

    Does Paulson appear freaked out or just frustrated?

    Wow--I wonder if they will suspend trading tomorrow if it keeps tanking . . .  I can't remember what the rule are for suspending trading.

    This is really scary.

  • shokk
    shokk Member Posts: 1,763
    edited September 2008
    40 percent of Democrats (94) voted against the bill...........this is Pelosi's own party........she only needed twelve of those 94 to change their mind  to pass it and she couldn't strong arm her OWN party to get this bill past...........her leadership is unbelievable............and then having the nerve to say that this is the Republican's fault.............she isn't going to get away with it............and of course I could be wrong but for the undecideds this could be a big issue...........Shokk
  • abbadoodles
    abbadoodles Member Posts: 2,618
    edited September 2008
    This is politics at it's finest.  Both sides have members up for re-election in a few weeks and they are afraid if they vote for this highly unpopular bill they will be kicked out of office.  (Even some Massachusetts Democrats - Delahunt, Tierney and I forget the other guy) Plain and simple.  Self interest rather than the interests of all the rest of us.  Whom do they think they are kidding?
  • Bren-2007
    Bren-2007 Member Posts: 6,241
    edited September 2008

    Do you honestly think the Republicans would vote NO because Pelosi was flapping her mouth?

    I don't.  It was a narrow vote.  The house voted the way their constituents wanted them to vote, in my opinion.  I don't think the Republican house members would vote NO just to slap Pelosi in the face.  They aren't the ones creating the legislation. Their responsibility is to vote the way their constituents expect them too. They are the ones voting on it for the little people they represent back home.  The Senate is the group that tacks on all the earmarks, writes the bills, etc. 

     The smartest discussion I heard on all this was by a guy named Kibbe on Cspan yesterday.  I felt what he said was painful, but true.  No talking heads, just a quiet smart guy answering questions. 

    It's no secret ... I've always been a Dem ... but I'm starting to think Canada is looking pretty good right now.  Or maybe a little island somewhere way far away where I can use my beads for cash.   

  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Member Posts: 1,376
    edited September 2008

    Pelosi and cronies started this partisanship YESTERDAY  by coming out after the repubs and calling this a Bush failed policy and went on and on.  I was livid!  Yes, partisanship started YESTERDAY...get it...Pelosi started it.  The repubs said nothing negative about the dems.  I was almost hoping this wouldn't go through because of Pelosi et al.  Today after the repubs talked about her lovely speech she looked rather, I can't think of the word.  And then Barney comes out and says if they got their feelings hurt (the 13 or so repubs) he UNCHARACTERISTICALLY talk nicely to them and try to change their mind...he's an idiot!  This is NOT funny and he is NOT funny!

    Theirs enough blame to go around.  However, I'm pointing my finger at the do nothing democrat congress (Pelosi) for get nothing done in the past two years.  They were warned about Freddie and Fannie.  Now perhaps it's biting them in the arse.  Dems stopped the REFORM of Freddie and Fannie.  And if McCain doesn't make a huge deal out of this he deserves to lose the election.  If he doesn't make a big deal out of the DO NOTHING CONGRESS (PELOSI) about energy, drilling and all, he again deserves to lose the election.  I don't know who in the hell is advising him.

    ARRRGGHHHHHHH!

    Shirley

  • anneshirley
    anneshirley Member Posts: 1,110
    edited September 2008

    Bin--I do think representatives (not using Republican here because it's a human, not a party thing) could vote "no" because of what Pelosi said.

    Assuming what I've hear on the news is correct, many Dems and Republicans were very reluctant to vote yes on this bill for many reasons, including principle.  Conservative Republicans, in particular, believe in liassez faire, so a yes bailout vote is very difficult for them.  They're dragged along reluctantly towards a yes vote, despite hearing from their constituents that they don't approve of the bailout and further they're up for reelection in a few weeks.  Now the Speaker, representing the other Party, immediately before  the vote, gives a partisan speech blaming the Republicans for the problem.  It would take some real integrity, even for those Republicans who thought the bailout a good idea, to vote yes.  But for those who weren't sure in the first place and whose jobs are on the line, I can imagine how they might have changed their minds.  

    To the question, did Pelosi want this to happen or is she just stupid, I don't think either. From what I've observed, she's not a natural leader.  She doesn't have that special something that leaders need, the ability to bring those who both agree with them and those who don't to agreement. 

    I remember my brother once lost a job he really wanted because the man interviewing him told him after the interview that he would always win the argument but lose the sale.  If Pelosi did what the Republicans say she did, I don't think she's the right person to be Speaker and the Dems should trade her out, hopefully in time for Cindy Sheehan to win her seat! 

    What did Kibbe say? 

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