Radiation necessary in an early stage cancer

worriedhubby, aren't you crossing the line from debate to bully?

WorriedHubby. The only sicko here is you. Why you continue to berate and trash people whom you do not agree with is beyond me. People have a right to give their opinions without being insulted by the likes of you. Would you please just leave us alone and go take care of your own. You have turned this thread from something meant to help women who have to make a tough decision, to your own personal vendetta. Enough already!!!! Please leave us alone!!

Why don't you women who think I am a bully simply ignore me.  I have been highly offended by the posts from MDB and I will respond how I choose.  Not only is she incredibly offensive to those intelligent enough to recognize what she is saying, but she is DANGEROUS.  You really want a know nothing accountant practicing medicine, casting aspersions on the whole medical establishment, minimizing INVASIVE BREAST CANCER and convincing woman seeking information that the doctors may not have their best interests at heart.  My wife would never come here to post.  You know why?  When I suggested she take a look at these boards her response was why should I care what other women have done or not done, or what their opinions are.  I either trust my doctors or I don't.  Makes sense to me.  And her experience with message boards in the past has been similar to this thread.  You have know nothings giving uneducated, stupid opinions.  And then you have she wolves who rally around to their defense.  For those who don't like me - -IGNORE me.  What is it with some of you anyway.  Geeze. 

Whoa, whoa whoa, this site is for everyone.  Worried hubby has as much right as any of us to his opinion, and voicing his opinion.  When you attack him personally, you are no better than what you are accusing him of.  He has a right to think what he wants, and as far as I know, to post it.

Now, the issue started with questions about the need for radiation in early, no node breast cancer.  Marie Kelly and mdb, very strongly said they felt the answer was "no".  Worried hubby said, he felt we should listen to our providers.  This was the original discussion.

One of the ladies above, I don't remember which one, has a lung issue and is a life-long smoker.  For her, surely, this decision is one she needs to make very carefully, since she is definitely in a very different place than most of us.  For her, I think this decision to not do rads was perfectly correct.  She has other issues that make rads for her very dangerous. I agree with her decision, I would have made the same one.

The argument started when it was proposed that "all" small, non node invasive tumor women were being told to have rads just for money or because it was the "rule".  With no thought given by most providers to other issues.  That is where we started.

worriedhubby got upset at the sweeping statements.  They worry me too.  I think we need to be careful "assuming" anything with cancer.  Dr. Susan Love states she has women with little tiny cancers that metastasize in weeks, then she has women with big, lazy tumors that she removes (convinced they are goners) who do very well.  Usually, size, grade and nodes do a pretty good job of telling us what is up and what our chances are.  But I got on the metastases board, asked the question about the recurrence incidence (since one of our posters had said she would just "cut out the new cancer", which seemed to imply you would have that chance to do this) and I found 14 responses, with only one who had a recurrence, first. The others just meted out with no warning

So, it seems that certainly individual reasons and individual situations make rads a bad choice, but we have to see that some women are so new to all this, they might be persuaded to say no to rads (which is fine) but for the wrong reasons.  I know in my community it is not "money" we are all on HMO's and they spend as little as possible on us Medigap people.  Also, the military sure isn't doing anything "extra" to make money.  Are some docs/hospitals/clinics doing things just for money?  Yes, they are, but this is for you to learn.  Do the docs/oncs frequently do "cookie cutter" treatments?  Yes, they do, but they have fairly good statistics to back up their recommendations. 

But still, you need to evaluate your own situation, not be told flat out, "it is for money" and just buy that, or be told "it is cookie cutter medicine" and just buy that.  You need to do your homework, study many books, not just take what any doc/onc recommends without studying first.  There is time, and that is for sure.

So let's stop the personal attacks.  Let's just give good opinions and advice and try to help the new girls especially.  Some of these women are poorly educated or very, very busy, and we are telling them to not do rads because of money?  Not good stewardship of this big responsibility.

Gentle hugs to all, let common sense and kindness come back, Shirlann   

I posted this on another thread, and want to repost it here since louishenry left a post here.  Thank you, louishenry, for leaving the suggestion about the VNPI worksheet elsewhere.  Here's the link:  http://poptop.hypermart.net/brcavnpi.html   This index allows you to plug in the info from your post-lumpectomy path report & come up with a rating that tells you in general whether you would benefit from radiation or not.  I used this index & found that my rating agreed with what my rad onc told me.  Also, we need to remember that when the docs talk about "recurrence," they are talking about a recurrence in the same breast the cancer has already appeared in.  A new cancer can appear in the other, unaffected breast, but that is evidently considered a new incidence, not a recurrence.  On the index, my posterior surgical margins weren't so wide, my nuclear grade wasn't so hot, and my relatively young age was against me.  So that's why I ended up with more risk, even though my DCIS was early & not even palpable.

 There were some great posts yesterday.  Thanks especially to easyquilts' wise words about recurrence & getting radiation (I so agree -- I'll do whatever I can to get rid of any of those invisible little b*stards!!)  & to worriedhubby for cutting & pasting that salient data on recurrence.  The pooint though, as Gayle just said, is that we each have to educate ourselves as best we can, as much or as little as we can stand it, and make decisions for ourselves.  There is no one correct recipe that works for everyone.  That's part of what makes this so tough on us.  If it was appendicitis, it would be a lot easier -- you just take the darn thing out & go home!! 

I just signed up here yesterday, and finding you all out there has made me feel a lot better, even with the occasional contentiousness.  If it weren't so stressful, we wouldn't get crabby. . .  Good luck to us all!

This post is directed at all of the women on this board, who have been diagnosed with early stage, breast cancer, either Stage 1 IDC or DCIS. And are now faced, with the choice of doing whole breast radiation:

As GayleD said, "I guess it's partly a matter of perception...when I read many of mdb's posts, I took them as her opinion based on her experience.  I know that I "heard" her saying numerous times that her views were hers and were based on her experience."

This is exactly, correct. 

I am NOT telling ANYONE, what to do. But what I am saying, is that there IS a choice. To NOT do, the radiation. I didn't do it, and two years later, I'm fine. And by now, I'm eating, better. and still exercising, and actually have started Vitamin D supplements. Plus, getting a lot of sun, on my daily, one hour walks.

Some posters, here, have called me "mentally ill." How hilarious. I know, EXACTLY, what I've chosen, for myself. 

And if I'm wrong, *I* die. 

A risk that I'm willing, to assume. 

You other women, here? You're choosing the course of action that is right, for yourself. And I totally respect that. That is all, ANY of us, can do. All that I'm saying, is that there IS another choice. To NOT do the radiation. 

I did NOT do, the radiation. Because, I truly believe, that if the cancer, comes back, I'll get it cut out, again. Other people, disagree.

This viewpoint, renders me, insane, in some poster's viewpoint. 

This viewpoint, renders ME sane, in MY viewpoint. 

And this is my LIFE. I hold my life, dearly.  I dont want to die.

Yet, I refuse, the radiation. Because, for ME, I see, no benefit. In Early Stage, Breast Cancer Radiation. 

And to just repeat ... I already HAD another Life-Threatening, cancer. The Leiomyosarcoma. A totally, DEADLY, cancer. I got the LITE version, of Leiomyosarcoma. Thankfully.

As a result, I'm not going to kill myself, to prevent the breast cancer; when my breast cancer was cut out, with HUGE margins.

And WHY, should you. 

Breast cancer is not the ONLY disease, that you will ever get.

I'm the proof, of that.

 mdb

I didn't do it, and two years later, I'm fine

Unfortunately, you are just beginning your journey into the unknown.  Good luck

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/OnCallPlusBreastCancerNews/story?id=5566177&page=1

You are insane not because you are taking an unreasonable risk, which is your choice, but because you do not believe Stage one to be a serious condition. 

I agree. Stage 1 breast cancer, is NOT a serious, condition. 

Life IS the unknown. Today, Hurricane Gustev veered, away, from New Orleans. Three days, ago, everyone said, it was going to hit, New Orleans. Worse, than Katrina. The "Storm of Century," according to the New Orleans' Mayor.

I think I'm the most sane person, on this board. I've made calculated descisions, for myself.  And even in the study that you quoted, above, there was this quote:

"But the study, Shockney said, does not delve into the individual risk factors that could increase one woman's risk for recurrence over another's. For example, she noted, women who are genetically predisposed for developing breast cancer are at higher risk for disease recurrence, yet these women were grouped together with those who do not carry this genetic risk."

In my view, that's what all of the "studies" have done.Especially, these studies, done 30 years, ago. When radiation after lumpectomy, became the "standard of care.' Grouped together, unlike women.

30 years ago, there was no digital mammography. There wasn't any breast MRIs. And I have had, both. Both, totally negative. 

And that's what I've based my choice on 

But, these 30 year old studies say that Breast Cancer radiation is helpful, for early stage breast cancer. These studies, done before digital mammography and before MRIs. Which is what all of these Rad Onc docs, feed us. 

I don't, believe it. I just, can't. It makes no sense, to me. And I am a totally, rational human being. Again, because I HAVE had the digital mammos and MRIs.

And in any case, ALL of life, is a risk.  An individual has a higher risk of dying from a car crash. Then, from breast cancer.

I'm just enjoying life. 

And come, December, I'll get another digital mammo. And see what's what, then. 

Totally happy, with this choice. And life is good, for me!

mdb

worriedhubby wrote:

mdb wrote:

"In 2006, when I had my breast cancer, the total medical charges to my insurance company, $80,000. And I paid, ~$4,000. WITHOUT, the radiation. 

All you had was surgery?  No chemo.  No Radiation.  No Tamoxifan?  I think you are full of cr*p.  Certainly the insurance company paid nowhere near that amount for a simple Breast Surgery"

Actually, you are right, worried hubby. It was $45,000 that was billed to my insurance company, for my 2006 Stage 1, ER/PR+/HER- breast cancer, diagnosis. The other $35K was billed for my Leio cancer. 

And no, I'm not "full of crap." Of course, being a CPA, I may be one of the few people that just adds these numbers, up. Most, don't. 

$45K, for a simple, breast cancer. Which would easily have been, $70K, if I'd elected the radiation.

My view? If it helps save your life? Worth it. If it's just a waste of time and medical resources, like most Stage 1/Stage 0 breast radiation? 

A WASTE of time and valuable, medical resources. 

The problem is that the medical community is so ... rigid. The "standards of care" are established, based on 30 year old studies, and they hold to them, rigidly. No thought, to the patient, sitting, in front of them. 

I made the correct decision. For me. To NOT do, this radiation.

mdb

We CAN"T IGNORE garbage........the STINK lingers on and on!!!!!!!

Holy cow, talk about a woman with serious issues.  You have MDB beat by a mile.  At the very least, you need medication to help you with your anger issue. 

Worried hubby....worried my foot......I have no anger issues of any sort.....we only want to get rid of a jerk that says he's a lawyer (but is probably a radiologist stating his case) who gets his JOLLIES off by irritating women that are trying to make the best of the life they were dealt. If you were my husband posting these foul name calling posts I would have to make am appointment for you ASAP to the local Psychiatrist!!!! We don't believe you have a wife with BC so get of of here and let us have a decent conversation. But you won't because you love stirring the pot and love to see women get cranked out of shape. AND YOU THINK i HAVE ISSUES???? Get a life.

OK Kiddies!!  Play nice!  I'll start putting people in corners!!!!

I've come to the conclusion that all involved in this thread just need to take a breath and step back and leave the discussion alone for a few days.  I thought that we were supposed to be intellegent adults (hopefully) and based on the conditions of our particular medical case, make an INFORMED decision that would benefit oneself.   I made my decision based on my medical issues, just as everyone else here has.  Each of the 2 different opinions has valid points in their favor.  They just got lost in between all the bickering. Let us all please agree to disagree. 

Gentle Hugs to all,

Trish

I say Bravo! to you Sandy. I was told I am in the "grey zone" as far as radiation is concerned. I chose to have it, because this desease is so unpredictable. That unpredictabilility exist for anyone at any stage.

Pam -- tomatojuice is in the grey zone for radiation after a masectomy, not a lumpectomy. Somewhere earlier on this thread I posted a link to a study suggesting that the old guideline of no radiation for 1-3 pos nodes after a masectomy should be revised -- that radiation resulted in increased survival in that population. With 3 pos nodes tomatojuice would be right on the border of the old guideline, but many oncos would now suggest radiation

here it is

http://breastcancersource.com/breastcancersourcehcp/6096_33732_0_0_0.aspx?

Dejaboo I guess there are as many variables, as there are unpredictabilities with this desease!Some one with stage 1 DCIS might need radiation , more than me. Whose to know? Its really a personal decision after all.